Originally posted by Simon
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Sumptuous in G from Hereford
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Jamiewhall
Originally posted by Gabriel Jackson View PostAnd that is the crux of the problem! The best liturgical music has always been written by the best composers of the day, and latterly that has meant professional composers who have careers in the concert hall and who happen to write church as well - figures like Stanford, Howells, Walton, Tippett, Britten and, more recently, Jonathan Harvey, Judith Weir, James MacMillan etc. Why anyone bothers with Sumsion(s) in G or Brewer in D is quite beyond me.
Still, that's no excuse for Darke in A minor.
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Originally posted by Jamiewhall View PostI think there's probably enough room in the cathedral choir calendar to accommodate the likes of Sumsion and Brewer in D if for no other reason than if you schedule the complete works of all the composers mentioned above, you'll probably fill about a month. Plus I'd imagine even the most gifted of choir trainers would appreciate being able to fill up the week with Wood, Murril and Bairstow to leave a bit of extra rehearsal time for Tippett at the weekend.
Still, that's no excuse for Darke in A minor.
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Jamiewhall
Originally posted by Gabriel Jackson View PostBut there's lots of easy music that doesn't need loads of rehearsal that's not rubbish!
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Originally posted by Jamiewhall View PostI think there's probably enough room in the cathedral choir calendar to accommodate the likes of Sumsion and Brewer in D if for no other reason than if you schedule the complete works of all the composers mentioned above, you'll probably fill about a month. Plus I'd imagine even the most gifted of choir trainers would appreciate being able to fill up the week with Wood, Murril and Bairstow to leave a bit of extra rehearsal time for Tippett at the weekend.
As it happens I'm accompanying Brew-up in D on Sunday evening, and I'm looking forward to it, as I always do. It is thoroughly pleasant and uplifting, and I find the organ accompaniment to be a perfect fit for it. Tenors love it too, mostly for the top G at the end.
With the best will in the world, no Cathedral choir can sing tricky music every day, and to keep the daily rhythm of services going you need something more straightforward every now and then. Parish choirs also need to keep things relatively simple, due to the abilities of the musicians involved. I think this is a particular feature of the Wood settings - particularly the D major setting which is mostly very straightforward. However, it is lovely stuff and works really well. There are two E flat settings - No. 2 has some Tuba honking in the Mag and finishes with the tenors high in the register - good fun (as featured at St Thomas this week). Moeran in D is another dead easy setting, but again very pleasant.
Wood in F (Coll Reg) I find very dull though I'm afraid, just doesn't seem to go anywhere. The Gloria is the best bit by some distance. Ireland in F similarly. Stainer in B flat has its moments. Murrill in E is great, Bairstow in D is good fun (not easy though) and Sumsion I've covered earlier.
Gabriel's list is interesting. Stanford and Howells are the two outstanding names in the field, I agree, and reached greatness unsurpassed (Howells Gloucester gets my vote for greatest ever). Of the others on that list, Walton's only attempt wouldn't get anywhere near a list of my favourites, Britten never bothered, Tippett I can't abide, MacMillan's setting is weird (strange organ interludes), not sure about Weir or Harvey.
I suppose it depends how you view these things. The sung canticles are part of the liturgy, a musical response to the readings that precede them, and so probably shouldn't be a musical show. You shouldn't judge the music in the same way as you do at a concert. Moreover, an over-ambitious and badly sung attempt at something complicated like Tippett detracts from rather than enhances worship. A choir that can sing Brewer in D with great musicality and enhance the worship by doing so is infinitely preferable to a choir that makes a mess of something much more complex.
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Originally posted by Philip View PostTippett...shudder. If thats proper music, I'll keep my Sumsion and Brewer dross thank you.
Originally posted by Philip View PostWith the best will in the world, no Cathedral choir can sing tricky music every day, and to keep the daily rhythm of services going you need something more straightforward every now and then.
Originally posted by Philip View PostMurrill in E is great,
Originally posted by Philip View PostGabriel's list is interesting. Stanford and Howells are the two outstanding names in the field, I agree, and reached greatness unsurpassed (Howells Gloucester gets my vote for greatest ever). Of the others on that list, Walton's only attempt wouldn't get anywhere near a list of my favourites, Britten never bothered, Tippett I can't abide, MacMillan's setting is weird (strange organ interludes), not sure about Weir or Harvey.
Originally posted by Philip View PostI suppose it depends how you view these things. The sung canticles are part of the liturgy, a musical response to the readings that precede them, and so probably shouldn't be a musical show.
Originally posted by Philip View PostYou shouldn't judge the music in the same way as you do at a concert.
Originally posted by Philip View PostMoreover, an over-ambitious and badly sung attempt at something complicated like Tippett detracts from rather than enhances worship.
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Jamiewhall
Originally posted by Gabriel Jackson View PostThere is plenty of music (from all periods) that is good, and not hard.
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Originally posted by Jamiewhall View PostOut of interest, Gabriel, can you suggest a few canticle settings that fall into this category. Between the easy dross and the classy mainstream I'm struggling to think of many other settings. Perhaps you could suggest a fortnight's worth? It's always interesting to hear what music other musicians rate.
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Jamiewhall
Originally posted by Gabriel Jackson View PostOff the top of my head, without thinking too hard about this (not enough time right now...!), there are, as you know, plenty of Tudor Short Services (and some verse or full services) that aren't difficult, and are good. Howells in G is the most straightforward of his services (that I know)...more recently, the actual notes of the Arvo Part Magnificat are not difficult (the Nunc Dimittis is more elaborate, of course). For trebles, Howard Skempton's Edinburgh Service has a few deceptive moments, where the line doesn't quite go where you think it might, but isn't difficult in the main. It's for others to decide whether it's any good or not, but my own Truro Service gets done a lot, bcause it's not difficult and is, I'm told, useful for unaccompanied days.
All that said, I wish more of our current great choral composers would write functional settings of the canticles. There's certainly a gap for new settings of the Te Deum.
Strangely I have yet to sing or hear your Truro Service, Gabriel. Look forward to it.
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Originally posted by Jamiewhall View PostI'm certainly on board with the various tudor settings and the others are very worthy but this doesn't convince me to abandon the organists' offerings. Without Watson in E and Kelway in A minor we'd have to sing/hear Weelkes Short at least twice a month and I'm not sure even I could cope with that.
Originally posted by Jamiewhall View PostVariety is key for me. Plus there's something comforting in being able to complain "what? Sumsion in A? Again?" and then secretly enjoy it.
All that said, I wish more of our current great choral composers would write functional settings of the canticles. There's certainly a gap for new settings of the Te Deum.
Strangely I have yet to sing or hear your Truro Service, Gabriel. Look forward to it.
I agree about useful, functional canticle settings but I suspect the reasons they tend not to get written are a) composers don't get asked for that (my Truro Service was written to a very specific brief from Andrew Nethsingha...) and b) composers may not necessarily be too keen on writing pieces (canticles) which are not, by and large, likely to be done in concerts (which anthems are, of course).
I do think it's a shame that, given many places still have a regular trebles only service, the two best settings - Howard Skempton's and Diana Burrell's - are done so rarely.
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If the canticles aren't a response to the readings, what are they for? I see them in that context, and I don't think the Tippett setting works here. Walton's 'Chichester Service' is very near the boundary as well.
I agree that there is much earlier music which we haven't mentioned which is well worth hearing. I think the best examples are the two Gibbons Services - his unaccompanied 'Short' service and the verse-style Second Service, both of which are wonderful as exemplars of that style. The former is straightforward, the latter not quite so much.
Howells in G, one of his earliest...absolutely, providing you give yourself enough time to wallow in the glorious end to the Mag. As Howells goes, Coll Reg isn't too tricky either, but beyond that it gets more difficult. I like Tavener's Coll Reg setting if you want something modern, but its far from easy. Likewise Leighton's Magdalen College service.
It is fine to talk about Cathedrals, but once you go down to Parish Church level (with a few notable exceptions) then the singers aren't as able, and Tippett, Walton, Leighton etc would be way out of reach.
I agree with your last point Gabriel about current composers - unless you get commissioned by a DOM there probably isn't much appeal in writing an Evensong setting as it will only ever get performed in a church setting (and heard on R3 every once in a while!). The Sumsions and Brewers of this world wrote their settings knowing that they would never get heard outside the church walls. I guess it is a question of differing tastes, but nothing I've seen on this thread so far has persuaded me that I shouldn't continue to enjoy the likes of Sumsion and Murrill. I certainly think they have something to say and can make a positive contribution to a worship experience at Evensong.
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Jamiewhall
Originally posted by Gabriel Jackson View PostWatson in E is certainly a better piece than Murrill's in the same key...
I'm sure it will be foisted on you somewhere eventually, Jamie!
I agree about useful, functional canticle settings but I suspect the reasons they tend not to get written are a) composers don't get asked for that (my Truro Service was written to a very specific brief from Andrew Nethsingha...) and b) composers may not necessarily be too keen on writing pieces (canticles) which are not, by and large, likely to be done in concerts (which anthems are, of course).
I do think it's a shame that, given many places still have a regular trebles only service, the two best settings - Howard Skempton's and Diana Burrell's - are done so rarely.
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