Ripon Cathedral Choir School

[Gabriel Jackson]

Don't be clever, GJ. This issue has been ongoing since March. The Dean and Chapter met last afternoon / evening [24th] and a statement is in preparation and promised for very rapid distribution. I am told it will be published of course first to parents etc before going public.

Perhaps you didn't read Mr Bryden's post..."As news becomes available I will post it in this forum"...

[weston752]

Don't be clever, GJ. This issue has been ongoing since March. The Dean and Chapter met last afternoon / evening [24th] and a statement is in preparation and promised for very rapid distribution. I am told it will be published of course first to parents etc before going public.

Given that you know all this already Draco, there isn't going to be too much left for Mr Bryden to say; and if his first priority was sorting out where his September treble line was going to come from, rather than responding to terse questioning, one could hardly blame him......

[DracoM]

No, you've got the wrong end of the stick!!

Cathedral sources made it clear that there was to be a meeting on the 24th to sort things out. I wrote the note this morning wondering if there had been a result and if there was to be any kind of statement. THEN it became clear that the timing was to be that the D&C - absolutely quite rightly - wanted to make the announcement in their own time when parents etc had been briefed. I had no idea of that timetable and was anxious to find out if Mr Bryden had any news.

Sorry, but for a variety of reasons this issue actually matters to me. Please forgive my over-anxiety.

[RiponCathedralDoM]

Further information about developments is available here

Andrew Bryden
Director of Music
Ripon Cathedral

[Pegasus]

Andrew. Please accept my sincere best wishes as you face considerable challenges ahead. I will pray for strength, vision, and imagination in the coming months for Ripon's musical and spiritual community.

[Bucinator]

I have seen some of the proposals and paperwork circulated to chorister parents by D, C & DOM.

They evidence a determination to balance the boys and girls in every way, to the extent of identical commitments, identical rewards (but only if the child lasts the course), and a Cathedral-focussed identity. I gather that parents have voiced some misgivings over the proposed structure, which entailed Saturdays devoted to practice which could last from 0930 to 1530. The costs would appear to be far more manageable for the Cathedral, with singing lessons being reduced in frequency by two thirds, all choral scholarships being discontinued w.e.f. December 2012, and a maximum benefit to choristers of £580 for six years service.

A larger boys choir gives more flexibility, of course, but I gather that it will no longer be mandatory for choristers (as there won't be choral scholars) to study two musical instruments. With choral practice sessions being cut by more than half, it is not unreasonable to expect the standard of the boy choristers to decline in the short term through the fall-out of current choristers, the demise of the choir school (a fertile recruiting ground in the past), and less demanding targets for musical accomplishment. I very much hope that the next year or two proves me wrong.

The equality thing is all very well (and all very CofE), but it has occurred to me from time to time that girls and boys differ! Their voices mature at different ages and speeds, and boy choristers have been known to require a little more help with self-discipline than their female counterparts. I also wonder if the high standards that I gather the girls choir have achieved may be in reaction to the high standards set by the boys 'old regime', and that a looser, less demanding regime for the boys may not result in a levelling off of (or even decline in) the girls standards.

I hope that the Cathedral can pull this off, but it does seem as if a framework has been constructed that is focussed exclusively to the Cathedral's ends. The paperwork proposed a consultation period for parents of a mere eleven days, and this at the beginning of the summer holidays! Mind you, cathedrals have been taking the goodwill of their choristers and parents for granted for decades, so Ripon parents should no doubt be grateful they were consulted at all!

[DracoM]

Many thanks for further info.

[Magnificat]

Further information about developments is available here

Andrew Bryden
Director of Music
Ripon Cathedral

Mr Bryden

I see that the choir will be opened up to children from any school in Ripon and the surrounding area.

This is a very sensible and, in my opinion. (as often previously expressed on this board) exactly what should be happening everywhere ( even if the choir school is still up and running) in this day and age. It has been very successfully operated in St Albans ( never been a choir school there) and although there will be difficulties to face and overcome this will be possible. It is sad about the choir school but your future can be very exciting and successful and I wish you well.

VCC

[Bucinator]

Bless you, VCC. Nobody would be more delighted than me if you were correct. Please explain to us (and Ripon's Dean, who appears to be under some misapprehension on the matter) how reducing rehearsal time by half and removing all obligations to take music lessons (whether instrumental, voice or theory) can improve standards?

I find it deeply ironic that love for musical excellence (which is what brings us to this board, after all) can co-exist with that peculiarly English anti-elitist trait, but we are a self-contradictory race, particularly in our youth. I wonder how many other members believe the assurances we have received for many years about A level standards? Dogma is no substitute for application, nor enthusiasm for discipline.

Your blind faith is both misplaced and inappropriate on a forum that is concerned above all with musical excellence.

[yorks_bass]

I hope forum-ites will forgive my cynicism, but as a former pupil of the school, deeply disappointed by recent events, I can't help wondering if the D&C's excitement over new opportunities is anything more than a very thin veneer to cover their relief at not having to shell out for school fees. It seems strange (to me) that the cathedral could have been under so much pressure from the charity commission to recoup the loan made to the school when it could so clearly be demonstrated that the loan was made in order to facilitate a significant part of the cathedral's life. The haste with which this 'opportunity' has been taken seems somewhat alarming. There was a good reason that the school was founded and purely local recruitment abandoned. Have the choir's and cathedral's needs really changed that much? I'd love to be wrong, and would welcome reassurances that I am...

[french frank]

I'd love to be wrong, and would welcome reassurances that I am...

Don't go away!

And just a general warning that the debate shouldn't get too specific and personal, please.

[Bucinator]

yorks_bass

Your cynicism, it seems, is not misplaced. But what else could they do, apart from being more honest about it? An indebted and poorly endowed cathedral, an indebted choir school, and a diocese whose future is uncertain - all these make for difficult times, even for a Dean who has done much for his cathedral in five years.

Notwithstanding Magnificat's dislike for choir schools, there is a lot of support for them on this Forum as well as nationwide, and it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that choral scholars (both boys and girls) could once again sing in Ripon.

Having choristers educated collectively allows more rehearsal time and more musical training. It may be that something is salvaged from this collapse, and if so, it should be used as a proper choral foundation. But tread warily - the Ripon experience would suggest that cathedral chapters are not business-minded. It would be better if the school ran as an independent school that also taught choristers, rather than a choir school that taught non-choristers too. It can be done - Guilford 'contract out', and Pilgrims School in Winchester educates two sets of boy choristers.

Hope springs eternal.

[yorks_bass]

I think you're probably right about the suitability of chapters as businessmen. For what it's worth, I do believe that they did all they could to salvage the situation, and really it wasn't one of their making (certainly not the current incumbents). I share your worry about rehearsal time and musical training. That said, St Alban's is a prime example of a place where it has worked for a long time. But still, I hope that something can be salvaged!

[Magnificat]

yorks_bass
Notwithstanding Magnificat's dislike for choir schools
.

Bucinator,

I have absolutely no dislike for choir schools at all. But, as I have said recently on another thread, DoMs are always bewailing the lack of candidates for vacancies these days especially boys and it makes no sense to me for them to limit their resources by insisting that choristers attend only the associated choir school. Recruitment should encompass all local schools even if this means difficulties and a lot more work for the DoM. It really is a question of whether the DoM has the drive and enthusiasm to be proactive in this regard.

The situation at Ripon is, it seems to me, an ideal opportunity to embrace some new and forward thinking about the choir and in this the Dean and Chapter are absolutely right. Why stick to the associated school principle? Open it all up to any child who wishes to sing in the cathedral choir and shows the necessary potential.

There is no reason for standards to slip once the initial recruiting and training period is over. It will, of course, as always, depend on the ability and charisma of the the DoM.

Repertoire may have to be limited a bit and they will have to be realistic about what can be achieved as they have to be at St Albans but no one can say that the standard of singing there is anything other than absolutely first class as will be heard again on CE in October and on thenew Mozart recording by the boys and men for Naxos.

As the recent organ scholar Richard Pinel said in an interview in the latest edition of Cathedral Music magazine daily excellence at St Albans is expected. There is no reason why it cannot be the same at Ripon without the choir school.

VCC

[ardcarp]

As the recent organ scholar Richard Pinel said in an interview in the latest edition of Cathedral Music magazine daily excellence at St Albans is expected. There is no reason why it cannot be the same at Ripon without the choir school

VCC. I'm remaining firmly neutral, thouigh it is a minor tragedy for a lot of people when a school has to close. I would make the point that in an area like St Alban's, in the South East and near large centres of population (same goes for Guildford) recruitment of day boys and girls is a lot easier than it would be in Ripon. This is no sleight on the good folks of Ripon! Just a geographical and demographical fact.