CE Hereford Cathedral 25th July 2012

[DracoM]

VCC

As many have already said, choristers / parents / cathedral teams / schools KNOW that the 3 Chs is part of the deal they sign up to.
I would respectfully suggest that the relevant DoMs know full well what demands such festivals place, and judge repertoire / rehearsals etc accordingly.
Most singing kids / singing men and girls I know see such festivals as a fantastic break from the diurnal round, love the intensity and thrill of bigger scale public performance.

Yes, of course they get knackered, but that just goes with the territory. They shrug and get on with it. They are professional, they are resilient. It is part of the whole musical education package, and a money making and PR deal for the foundations and a THRILL for audiences that goes with being part of the Hereford / Gloucs / Worcs teams.

[Radegund]

Criticism of scheduling events which require choristers' attendance during the school holidays, especially if it's just because 'we've always done it that way' has set me thinking. By the same line of argument, is it therefore too much to require choristers (and their families) to be available at Christmas and Easter as well? These occasions generally fall within the school holidays too. There is a serious point here, which is that if a chorister has been recruited from a non-church family - as so many are - the idea of attending church possibly up to three times on either Christmas Day or Easter Day when most children of their age are opening presents or gorging on Easter eggs, may come as a rude shock to the boy/ girl and his/her family.

[DracoM]

And your point is?

[Jeptha]

I really don't think that ANY potential chorister or their family will start not knowing that there will be significant commitments outside school terms.

[Wolsey]

Criticism of scheduling events which require choristers' attendance during the school holidays, especially if it's just because 'we've always done it that way' has set me thinking. By the same line of argument, is it therefore too much to require choristers (and their families) to be available at Christmas and Easter as well?

By the same line of argument, is it too much to expect choirs to undertake tours and recording sessions as well after terms have finished? As has been said before, choristers and parents know the commitments before a place in a choir is accepted. I would welcome Roger Judd's perspective from his years at Windsor, however, judging from the nonsense he has had to put up with earlier in this thread, who can blame him if he feels there's little to be gained from offering a contribution from first-hand experience which would enlighten and educate us all.

[Jeptha]

I quite agree. And also, since it's been mentioned, the IOF in St Albans does take place mostly in term time, granted, but how much singing is in that festival, compared with Three Choirs or the SCF?

[Magnificat]

It is a sorry state of affairs when the informed contributions of a retired professional church musician on a forum such as this cannot be understood, and are met with nonsensical drivel from others. It may appear as a comic turn to some, but I think it would be a loss to this group if its more distinguished members (e.g.Roger) felt little point in writing here when others neither have much to offer in terms of informed debate, nor show an ability to grasp the points being made. Magnificat writes of the boys that "They may love it" [i.e. participating and soaking up the atmosphere of the Festival], but wants to stifle that musical enrichment because "they are being asked to do far too much". This is the unforgivable writing of a fool.

Wolsey,

As I, and others, have said many times before the future of cathedral music, which is threatened in many ways, is too important to be left to the professionals who for the most part, it seems to me, would like the status quo to continue. That is human nature but it can easily lead to complacency and concern solely for their own musical reputations when their real concerns should be much wider.This mindset will eventually bring about the end of the cathedral choral tradition.

In the case of TCF I am simply questioning ( and playing Devil's advocate to some extent ) as to whether enough thought is being given as to what is being asked of the choristers ( and their families ) in modern times). Is this why recent broadcasts of CE from TCF have not been as good as they perhaps ought to be?

Of course, I respect Roger Judd's views but, as you say, he is a retired cathedral (chapel) musician and I would expect him to say what he has said about TCF so I have questioned them. It is quite legitimate to do this surely?

In fact,the most interesting thing for me that has come out of this discussion is nothing to do with the singing so much but that some people seem to think that only the TCF authorities know how to organise a large scale event like this which is based in a cathedral and its environs .They need to get around a bit and see how other places fit similar events into the daily round.

New ideas and thinking from outside the confines of the cathedral world whether you or any other contributors agree with them or consider them foolish, in my opinion, stimulate discussion at least and, who knows, this may well influence things for the better. All of us who love the choral tradition of our cathedrals and colleges owe it nothing less.

Regards,

VCC

[Magnificat]

I quite agree. And also, since it's been mentioned, the IOF in St Albans does take place mostly in term time, granted, but how much singing is in that festival, compared with Three Choirs or the SCF?

Jeptha,

Not as much as there is at TCF certainly.

The boys will usually sing an opening Festival evensong with the men, a three choirs concert with two top class invited choir school choirs comprising three individual choir pieces either music new to them or known repertoire and three combined pieces again a mixture of new and regular repertoire and three daily evensongs on their own comprising their usual repertoire.

The learning of new pieces ,I would imagine, takes place throughout the choir year and is obviously the harder work for Andrew Lucas and can be quite a learning curve for the boys as they can be quite difficult items.

Because of the way the Abbey choir has to operate Andrew has to be extremely careful about what he asks the boys to take on but to some extent has no real choice now that he is no longer artistic director of the Festival.

The IOF Three Choirs Concert takes place in the last week or straight after the end of the term.

There are times when visiting college choirs who have been touring after the end of University term seem to me to be completely sung - out and I do wonder whether they too are doing too much.

VCC

[decantor]

It's all very confusing. In previous threads, there have been regrets over the élite nature of choristerships, and laments that so few of the nation's children have this golden musical opportunity. Now choristership is being represented by some as a Dickensian institution from whose extracurricular demands our boys and girls must promptly be rescued.

I can add to the debate only one thing from personal experience: having taught boys of chorister age for 40 years, I can vouch for their resilience. Once they take a pride in their activity - sport, drama, music, even academics at times - and smell success, their appetite for it is insatiable. Rugby and cricket tours, orchestral and choral courses, drama up in Edinburgh? No problem, even if it is all in holiday-time - there is a virtually bottomless supply of energetic commitment. And the parents rarely cavil: rather, they make their dispositions and swell with pride - rightly.

So should we all. A section of our youth brings honour to our arts' scene as well as to our liturgy. If they have complaints, there are proper channels outside this board. Our role is to enjoy and be thankful for the talent and dedication of the youngsters and their mentors. How come that, in all these years, no one has shed a tear for the King's choristers who arrive home for Christmas at about the time Santa is due to arrive? Or for their cathedral counterparts who might miss his visit altogether? Against this, a week of the summer is as nothing. They have their compensations and satisfactions, and they deserve our gratitude for their unique contribution to our national life. To pity them is to disparage their effort - and that is the most unkindest cut of all.

[Roger Judd]

By the same line of argument, is it too much to expect choirs to undertake tours and recording sessions as well after terms have finished? As has been said before, choristers and parents know the commitments before a place in a choir is accepted.

Sometimes during the half-term break, sometimes during the period just before Christmas, and once during the Easter holiday - as far as I know, always with the enthusiastic backing of the chorister parents. The Hyperion recordings we did with Christopher Robinson were made in N.London, because of aircraft noise at Windsor, and they happened after the end of term.

As I write, I think the choir of St John's Cambridge is on tour in Japan...

Chorister and non-chorister alike went on orchestral courses, skiing trips, outward-bound type activity weeks, during holiday / family time - all part of character development and life enriching.

Anyone who knows me would be amused at the idea that I slavishly accept the status quo. I think it rather impertinent that someone on this forum should presume such an insight into my psyche. Let's stick to what we know.
RJ

[weston752]

Jeptha,

There are times when visiting college choirs who have been touring after the end of University term seem to me to be completely sung - out and I do wonder whether they too are doing too much.

VCC

That may perhaps be more -related than otherwise.....

[Gabriel Jackson]

Let's stick to what we know.
RJ

If only...!

It's worth acknowledging and celebrating that, despite the various difficulties many institutions face, the quality of our liturgical choirs across the board is higher than it's ever been. I've been fortunate enough to work closely with many cathedral and collegiate choirs, famous and not-so-famous, well-off and impoverished, and I've never failed to be impressed and delighted with the results of those collaborations. Particularly exciting is the wonderful singing now to be heard in such far-flung, and far from wealthy, cathedrals as Truro and St Mary's, Edinburgh. I am so pleased that ears untainted by personal affinity and affection (i.e. reviewers...) have been heaping such glowing praise on the singing of St Mary's cathedral choir on the recent disc they've done with me (yes that's a plug(!), but it's also undoubtedly the case that 30 or 40 years ago a choir like that could not have learned from scratch an entire disc's worth of difficult new music and sung it as outstandingly as has been universally recognised that they do).

[ardcarp]

decantor, How I agree with your message #69. And Radegund, thanks so much for your informative posts about the recent history of the TCF. And Roger J, I can understand your frustration, but please don't give up on us, disputative bunch though we be.

Returning to the subject of the CE combined choirs broadcast, I've now heard it twice through. It was a good big sound as one would expect. It is difficult for combined choirs (two of which will obviously be used to different styles of direction...not to mention different pointing) to produce the wonder of one brilliant choir on top form. There was just a trace of fatigue in the treble line in quieter moments in the psalms, but is that surprising? The canticles (though not my favourite...and incidentally attributed to Charles Gounod on one of the BBC sites) were a good choice being for double choir. And the anthem sounded great.

Well done Hereford, Gloucester and Worcester, and keep the tradition alive whatever time of year it happens!

[Flosshilde]

such far-flung, ... cathedrals as Truro and St Mary's, Edinburgh.

Edinburgh, far flung? !!!! It's only the capital, legal & financial centre, & the seat of government.

[orbis factor]

Edinburgh, far flung? !!!! It's only the capital, legal & financial centre, & the seat of government.

Far-flung from eachother?