I was glad

[secret squirrel]

I should add that the above is just my 'take' on it and certainly nothing learned or definitive (though the "et imperator" is in the back of my mind possibly from an old copy sung from in my youth!).

Also, are the vivats just for the King, or do / will they include his Queen Consort (Edinburgh was never HMQ's 'king' of course)?

So will Carol(in)us end up being paired with Camilla ?!

On balance I think "wait and see" is the best option!

[LeMartinPecheur]

Has anyone been able to check if secret squirrel's linguistic 'reverse engineering' actually corresponds with pre-1953 scores? Or are there any 78rpm recordings of the piece with the Vivats?

Perhaps not: I have the impression that before our own day these were reserved pretty strictly for coronations, and of course the Queen's Scholars of Westminster School claim a strict monopoly of this passage in my score. We certainly didn't include them when my school choir sang it c.1971 and I had the impression that the White Tower would have claimed us if we had

[PS Answering my own question, there is a 78 set of the whole of the 1937 Coronation listed in the 1938-39 HMV catalogue, cat. no's RG1-14. 'I was glad' and the 'Recognition fanfares' are on RG1 if anyone happens to have a set still lying around]

[mercia]

On balance I think "wait and see" is the best option!

yes, you're right
I was about to reply to another post which has disappeared making the valid point that the problem of lack of syllables starts even earlier

[secret squirrel]

I have been a-googling for 10 minutes now hoping the answer will make itself known, but no luck so far...

Out of print / date scores or 78s from the day seem to be the only option, then!

My last 'observation' though (call it reverse engineering if you will!) is that as they are 'just' metered shouts from the Scholars, perhaps the 'music' itself is re-written to fit the words each time rather than the other way around?

I am still pretty confident, though, that "Imperator" played a part from 1902 to 1937, hence my simple 'conversion' of Rex Georgius et Imp. to Regina Elizabetha.

I will keep googling...!

[ahinton]

This is all very interesting and enlightening but, even if Charles has already decided to assume the monarchical mantle when the time comes (and, of course, circumstances might bring about a change of mind between now and then or the Queen might even outlive him), what if the dissoluton of the Union has occurred during the present Queen's reign? I understand that - at present, at least - an independent Scotland will wish to retain the current monarchy as well as maintaining sterling as its currency, although I do not know what an independent Wales or Northern Ireland might do about either of these things; one might question (just as I'm sure some already are doing) just how "independent" a Scotland will be if its government's relationship with that monarchy remains more or less identical to that which the Scottish Parliament now has with the British monarchy, especially if Scotland continues also to use English currency rather than adopt the Euro or found its own currency. The future of that monarchy in each of the four countries following the break-up of the Union is surely a rather larger consideration than whether or not a successor monarch (if any) will be officially styled by his birth forename, especially if the first tastes of independence in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland mght bring about a desire for greater independence, including severance with the English monarchy such as is desired by the Republicans in Australia and which, if successful, might mean that the direct rôle of the monarchy becomes confined to England alone. OK, the Union might not break up but, as it might, the question cannot sensibly be ignored altogether.

Anyway, isn't the direction which this thread seems now to be going (and which I admit to perpetuating) threatening to get rather too uncomfortably close to that of the Jubilee thread?...

[Simon Biazeck]

I have been a-googling for 10 minutes now hoping the answer will make itself known, but no luck so far...

Out of print / date scores or 78s from the day seem to be the only option, then!

My last 'observation' though (call it reverse engineering if you will!) is that as they are 'just' metered shouts from the Scholars, perhaps the 'music' itself is re-written to fit the words each time rather than the other way around?

I am still pretty confident, though, that "Imperator" played a part from 1902 to 1937, hence my simple 'conversion' of Rex Georgius et Imp. to Regina Elizabetha.

I will keep googling...!

I have sent you a private message about this.

In the meantime, an utterly glorious performance from St. Paul's (ten years ago!) dir. John Scott.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YstlGy1Ld0

[BBMmk2]

Ah that was wonderful, SB!!

peaking from a personal viewpoint, it be aboiut time the Plantagenets had another go at it!!

[Simon Biazeck]

Ah that was wonderful, SB!!

Isn't it! And there's so much more Parry that deserves to be heard!

[ardcarp]

I have the impression that before our own day these were reserved pretty strictly for coronations, and of course the Queen's Scholars of Westminster School claim a strict monopoly of this passage in my score. We certainly didn't include them when my school choir sang it c.1971 and I had the impression that the White Tower would have claimed us if we had

Definitely. In my chorister days...well before yours....it would have been heresy to sing the vivats; they were just for coronations. Nowadays it's fine to sing them in 'reconstructions' and generally in concert performances, though still not, I fancy, as part of a service however festive.

[LeMartinPecheur]

Definitely. In my chorister days...well before yours....it would have been heresy to sing the vivats; they were just for coronations. Nowadays it's fine to sing them in 'reconstructions' and generally in concert performances, though still not, I fancy, as part of a service however festive.

I believe my wife either sang them or heard them sung in a service in Henley-on-Thames church years ago, though IIRC - she's not around to ask just now - this was in the context of the 1977 Jubilee. So I suppose that would have been OK.

[Pabmusic]

Here's the autograph full score: http://www.rcm.ac.uk/library/iwasglad/

I can't read the text of the vivats at my current screen resolution. I'll tackle it in the morning - I used to be reasonably familiar with the handwriting.

Note that the autograph full score was part of Novello's hire library till 1948!

[I've now found that there's a zoom facility. What is there is "Vivat Regina Maria" twice, followed by "Vivat Rex Georgius" twice. This is presumably an insert for the 1911 coronation (the paper does seem to be different from the rest of the score). Odd, isn't it?]

[ardcarp]

Well, I've just magnified it up to bursting point and it looks for all the world like VIVAT REGINA MARIA. (Was Parry a closet Catholic?) It needs someone with better eyesight/computer skills, possibly.

[Pabmusic]

Well, I've just magnified it up to bursting point and it looks for all the world like VIVAT REGINA MARIA. (Was Parry a closet Catholic?) It needs someone with better eyesight/computer skills, possibly.

You're quite right. The next page gives "Vivat Rex Georgius". This was obviously for the 1911 coronation - George V and Queen Mary. These pages have been inserted into the 1902 score - there's no sign of what was there for Edward VII and Alexandra.

[ardcarp]

...which raises again the possibility that Camilla might get a Vivat

[LeMartinPecheur]

...which raises again the possibility that Camilla might get a Vivat

Vivat Camilla Cornualliensis?

It fits the notes...