Music teaching and outcomes in schools

[MrGongGong]

I quite agree. There are many good things. There is something quite nice about knowing you (quite possibly) share the condition with Mozart, Beethoven, Elgar, Bruckner, Mahler, Richard Strauss, Bartok, Newton, Darwin, Einstein, Turing, and Marylin Monroe (and a host of others) - all of whom exhibited enough symptoms of Asperger's. Not to mention those still with us, such as Michael Palin, Tony Benn and Bob Dylan. (Elgar and Mahler probably had bi-polar disorder, too - it's not uncommon with Asperger's, apparently.)

(this has drifted a bit OT)

But I absolutely agree with you

My son finds it enormously empowering to know that he isn't some kind of oddity.
The ability to concentrate and focus that he has is something that most if us struggle with, if one removed all the people on the spectrum from music we would have some very small orchestras indeed
I always think it's important to remember that much of what is considered a "condition" of Aspergers is purely to do with social norms ...... for example

To know the date of birth of every player in Manchester United is considered "normal" and an expression of a "passion"
To know the precise details of the construction of WW2 pill boxes on the East coast of England (one of my son's passions) is considered a bit "weird" and a "symptom" of his autism

How about knowing the BWV # of every Bach cantata ?
or
Being able to memorise and play every Beethoven piano sonata ?

It's not "PC" nonsense to have a bit more respect for these people , so many things that we value in the world (there's a lot wrong with microsoft software but Bill Gates is a prime example of a very successful person with Aspergers) have come from them.
The "suffering" that people sometimes refer to comes not from ASD but other peoples attitudes and reactions to what would seem to be a "bit strange" .

[Pabmusic]

(this has drifted a bit OT)

Yes it has. Let's hope no-one notices.

...The "suffering" that people sometimes refer to comes not from ASD but other peoples attitudes and reactions to what would seem to be a "bit strange" .

100% agree I have seen it speculated that, without Asperger's and high-level autism, we would probably have no musicians, no scientists and no mathematicians. Few philosophers, either.

[Magnificat]

Re Asperger's. I have sometimes wondered - fancifully, perhaps - if the condition we refer to as Asperger's is in fact the next stage of human evolution. It is now possible to communicate with the world from a darkened room, with no conventional social interaction: just what they need. Asperger's "sufferers" (sic) present enormous creativity - talent in the arts and in problem-solving and application - that remains largely untapped. We should at least nurture them more so that they can make their contribution, and maybe lead us to a better future. After all, Gary McKinnon outwitted the Pentagon, yet we contemplate an extradition that will subject him to criminal proceedings. Why is he not directing a department of GCHQ? (From his bedroom, of course.)

decantor,

People with Aspergers have a highly developed sense of right and wrong but this is often overwhelmed by their obsessions. In Gary McKInnon's case an obsession with UFOs.

How it can be right to even consider extraditing someone as vulnerable as this is beyond me. He's had ten years of hell now. The government should tell the Americans to get off his back in no uncertain terms but the cowards won't do it because they are frightened of upsetting them over the extradition treaty. It is a total disgrace to contemplate sending someone thousands of miles away from his home to stand trial when he is too scared even to get on a bus.

All the recently accused hackers with their obsessions have shown the same symptoms of shutting themselves off from the world in their bedrooms with the curtains drawn all day etc. The problem is that they all look like absolutely normal people from the outside and those who have no experience of someone with this condition can easily think they are ordinary criminals.

VCC

[MrGongGong]

One persons "Obsession" is anothers "Passion"
Is Alfred Brendel "overwhelmed by his obsession" ?

The case of Gary McKinnon is a classic example of how we completely misunderstand people , you are quite right and we should tell the USA where to shove it , but in spite of Camerons supposed empathy as a parent I don't hold out ANY hope given this governments complete lack of empathy or understanding

I spent a lot of time crossing out the pejorative term "obsession" and replacing it with "specialist interest" on my sons statements of special needs when he was at secondary school ............

In my world it's perfectly "normal" to lock yourself in a room for several hours to learn how to play a difficult passage
as it is also perfectly "normal" to spend hours playing computer games

though maybe in our house the only "normal" thing is a setting on the washing machine

[ardcarp]

How it can be right to even consider extraditing someone as vulnerable as this is beyond me. He's had ten years of hell now. The government should tell the Americans to get off his back in no uncertain terms but the cowards won't do it because they are frightened of upsetting them over the extradition treaty. It is a total disgrace to contemplate sending someone thousands of miles away from his home to stand trial when he is too scared even to get on a bus.

There is some strange hold the U.S. has over us which I've never understood. The 'relationship' is definitely one-sided, and I don't see a U.S. citizen being extradited here under identical circumstances.

Thanks McGG and Pabmusic for your first-hand insights into Asberger's. We often hear of an autistic or asbergic spectrum. Is it easy to define the limits between, say, a slightly obsessive personality - asbergers - autism and what is the diagnostic procedure? This probably doesn't have an easy answer!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Who is to say what is "normal"?

I have a close relative who may have Asberger's, but I would rate him amongst the finest human beings alive.

[teamsaint]

I think one has to work quite hard at being normal. I do. As people on this board know, I am miles off, as yet !!

Fascinating thread.
As for ofsted............they represent pretty much all that is wrong in the way modern organisations are run..ie by bullies, for bullies.

[MrGongGong]

There's no b in Asperger

[Miles Coverdale]

As for ofsted............they represent pretty much all that is wrong in the way modern organisations are run..ie by bullies, for bullies.

Q. What's the difference between a plastic surgeon and an Ofsted inspector?

A. One tucks up your features and the other ...

[MrGongGong]

Q: Whats the difference between an Ofsted inspector and the IRA

A: You can negotiate with the IRA

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

There's no b in Asperger

Sorry.

[Pabmusic]

...We often hear of an autistic or asbergic spectrum. Is it easy to define the limits between, say, a slightly obsessive personality - asbergers - autism and what is the diagnostic procedure? This probably doesn't have an easy answer!

I'm no expert, but here's some information. The Australian article gives a good summary of Asperger's in adults, while the UK site has excellent fact sheets and diagnostic material.

http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/asperger_syndrome_and_adults

http://www.aspergerfoundation.org.uk/

I can't resist quoting from one of the information sheets - the one about relationships. It lists the (potential) benefits to be found in an Asperger's partner:

• Gentle, kind and courteous
• Intelligent – enjoys knowledge and learning
• Honest and straight-forward
• Child-like and playful
• Good sense of humour
• Practical or technical skills
• Dedicated to relationship

See - there's many positives. Let's hope the Americans don't try to get me.

[MrGongGong]

And to (slightly ?) complicate matters
I (and some but not all people) am of the opinion that there is a big difference between someone with Aspergers and someone with "high functioning autism" so that the idea of a "spectrum" with people at different points on it isn't always the most useful model.

One has to be very careful of descriptions of "Typical Symptoms" as these usually have the whole "lacking empathy" thing that the media so quickly like to pounce on and is entirely inaccurate for many people with Aspergers.

[Pabmusic]

And to (slightly ?) complicate matters
I (and some but not all people) am of the opinion that there is a big difference between someone with Aspergers and someone with "high functioning autism" so that the idea of a "spectrum" with people at different points on it isn't always the most useful model.

One has to be very careful of descriptions of "Typical Symptoms" as these usually have the whole "lacking empathy" thing that the media so quickly like to pounce on and is entirely inaccurate for many people with Aspergers.

How right you are about 'lacking empathy'. The Australian site I linked to in post 57 has 'problems with understanding another person’s point of view', which is nearer, I think. It's not lack of empathy, but rather not always understanding that empathy is called for at that precise moment - and when you realise that it was, you feel very bad indeed.

[MrGongGong]

See - there's many positives. Let's hope the Americans don't try to get me.

We really do need to resist the tide of "normalisation", there are some very dodgy people out there who think that people like you and my son need to be "cured" but they haven't started putting slogans on busses yet

In a society that is increasingly LESS tolerant of difference we need to stand up for the right to be eccentric, odd or have "niche" interests , anyone going through my CD collection would have me down as a bit of "risk".