Music teaching and outcomes in schools

[french frank]

The primary stress on carmina (as in Carmina Burana) would also be on the first syllable, but try telling anyone that.

Good, an authoritative ruling. Sometimes one begins to doubt.


Well, now, referring to the reason why I asked about 'magister': the OED gives the (current?) pronunciation as: Brit. /məˈdʒɪstə/ , U.S. /məˈdʒɪstər/ which indicates the stress on the second syllable ...

[Pabmusic]

...Throughout my teaching career, I taught kids using 'vaynee' not 'waynee' (to hell with the Inspectorate!)...

We used to pronounce Latin according to a system we inherited from the French (that would be the 'traditional' or 'ecclesiastical' pronunciation) that altered over the years as the pronunciation of English changed. Also, the influence of church Latin and any international trends was minimal between the Reformation and 1829, because of the absence of the Catholic church (whose services were in Latin till the 1960s). But by the end of the 19th Century, the New Latin pronunciation (waney, weedy, weaky) was gaining ground and replacing the English pronunciation in schools. I know it's unfashionable now, but James Hilton's Goodbye, Mr Chips comments on this (Chips always used old pronunciation). The C of E and academia never stopped using English pronunciation, though.

[mangerton]

PS A little while ago, on these boards I think, there was a discussion about the pronunciation of Latin. It had started off commenting on the current fashionable deviations from traditional sung (i.e. Italianate) Latin. But some scholarly person (I forget who) widened the discussion to Classical or 'school' Latin. Apperently the latter has not always been consistent and has not always used the soft 'v'. We definitely said, for veni, vidi, vici, waynee, weedy, weeky; but I gather it was not always thus.

This may have been me, though I'm not sure about "scholarly". I said that I was taught "v" in the 60s, and my sister, a few years younger and at a different school, was taught "w". As decantor says, very girly. Choir members, of whom I was one, had to be bi-lingual, as ardcarp mentions above.

[jean]

PS A little while ago, on these boards I think, there was a discussion about the pronunciation of Latin. It had started off commenting on the current fashionable deviations from traditional sung (i.e. Italianate) Latin. But some scholarly person (I forget who) widened the discussion to Classical or 'school' Latin...

This may be the thread you mean. There is much learning thereon:

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?4216-Byrd-Andrew-Carwood-amp-the-Cardinall-s-Musick&highlight=pronunciation+Latin

Especially relevant to this thread is this:

...One obvious way in which the pronunciation of 'English' Latin has changed over time is the the sound of the vowel in the word 'te' (as in Laudamus te), which has moved from rhyming with 'tea' to rhyming with 'tay'. An example of this shift can be seen in the macaronic carol In dulci jubilo:

O Jesu parvule,
My heart is sore for thee.

which later became

O Jesu parvule,
I yearn for thee alway.

The earlier pronunciation probably explains why 'dominie' was respelled with that additional 'i'.

[jean]

Good, an authoritative ruling. Sometimes one begins to doubt.

As one probably should, given that

Well, now, referring to the reason why I asked about 'magister': the OED gives the (current?) pronunciation as: Brit. /məˈdʒɪstə/ , U.S. /məˈdʒɪstər/ which indicates the stress on the second syllable ...

which I didn't know.

If we've really adopted the word into English, I suppose we've begun to give it an English stress...though I don't think I've ever heard the pronunciation that's implied here!

[jean]

We used to pronounce Latin according to a system we inherited from the French (that would be the 'traditional' or 'ecclesiastical' pronunciation) that altered over the years as the pronunciation of English changed. Also, the influence of church Latin and any international trends was minimal between the Reformation and 1829, because of the absence of the Catholic church (whose services were in Latin till the 1960s). But by the end of the 19th Century, the New Latin pronunciation (waney, weedy, weaky) was gaining ground and replacing the English pronunciation in schools. I know it's unfashionable now, but James Hilton's Goodbye, Mr Chips comments on this (Chips always used old pronunciation). The C of E and academia never stopped using English pronunciation, though.

Its not quite that simple - see the thread I've linked to.

'Academia' were using the reformed pronunciation by the 1960s. It was a product of academic research, after all.

What they didn't do was adopt Italianate pronunciation.

[Pabmusic]

Its not quite that simple - see the thread I've linked to.

'Academia' were using the reformed pronunciation by the 1960s. It was a product of academic research, after all.

What they didn't do was adopt Italianate pronunciation.

[french frank]

Its not quite that simple - see the thread I've linked to.

'Academia' were using the reformed pronunciation by the 1960s. It was a product of academic research, after all.

What they didn't do was adopt Italianate pronunciation.

What struck me was pabmusic's mention of French, because that does (anomalously) stress the final syllable - evidence on the pronunciation link I gave for German (scroll down below map). The final being the normally stressed syllable of French. I like decantor's explanation of the sing-song rhythm, though!

If we've really adopted the word into English, I suppose we've begun to give it an English stress...though I don't think I've ever heard the pronunciation that's implied here!

I have come across it, used in a religious title - which unfortunately I can't remember , but it was of the type 'Magister Ludi' and it's what made me doubt.

Is it possible that the i was variable? I would expect the syllabification to be ma-gi-ster, so nothing to stop the i being long, or at least 'lengthened' (because it's not blocked), in which case it would be stressed, definitely.

Oh, dear. I'm on a hobby-horse so have deleted the rest of the details . Perhaps it should have a new thread for those who are interested?

[ardcarp]

I feel very humble amidst all this scholarship. I only got O-level Latin.



But it's all fascinating.

[teamsaint]

I feel very humble amidst all this scholarship. I only got O-level Latin.



But it's all fascinating.

I got booted out at 14 for getting 1/2 out of 25 in a test.

I left "Quam Celerrime!"

(TBF, I have found the latin I DID retain very useful ).

[secret squirrel]

My final Latin report read as follows:

Number of boys in form: 12
Average age in form 12
Place in term: 12th
Place in exam: 12th [a repeat of that year's Common Entrance exam]
Final place 12th
Remarks by master: "consistent"

If only he had inspired me as some posters above endeavour to do with their own pupils....


SS

[teamsaint]

My final Latin report read as follows:

Number of boys in form: 12
Average age in form 12
Place in term: 12th
Place in exam: 12th [a repeat of that year's Common Entrance exam]
Final place 12th
Remarks by master: "consistent"

If only he had inspired me as some posters above endeavour to do with their own pupils....


SS

my favourite Divinity (!) report read..................." He treats the subject with a gay insouciance " !!
dictionary time.

[ardcarp]

It reminds me of Fred Astaire's first screen test. Comment: Can't sing, can't act. Balding. Can dance a little.

Also, my old singing teacher (long dead) was asked to take on a certain young Julie Andrews, and declined after auditioning her, saying, 'She'll never make a singer'. In fairness, he told this story against himself.

[french frank]

One year I had on my art report: 'french frank tries'.

[decantor]

One year I had on my art report: 'french frank tries'.

It isn't fair. When I was at school, I received on my reports the pithy one-liners, as seen in recent posts. By the time I retired from teaching, I was expected to deliver at least a hundred words on each child, all beautifully printed by mail-merge on an A5 page. Was this really progress, or just a case of "we have the technology"?