Durham still free

[Wolsey]

ardcarp

I agree with you but with the recent budget abolishing the VAT exemption on listed building repairs and organ refurbishment the likelihood is that more cathedrals will have to charge for entry especially if they rely on tourist income which may also have been hit by the recession.

No. The Chancellor announced in the Budget that approved alterations to listed buildings - which, unlike repairs and maintenance are currently zero-rated - will be charged at the standard rate of 20% VAT from October. As far as organs are concerned, the rules concerning this tax are complex, and there are various criteria which determine whether a new organ or work on an existing organ is zero-rated or charged at the standard rate. In some cases, churches involved with work on the organ may find it subject to standard-rate VAT from October if the proposal is implemented.

[decantor]

It is interesting that the Anglican Church is the established church, i.e. connected with the state and the monarchy, and yet receives no financial support from it. These great medieval buildings are part of our national heritage and no doubt a great boost to the tourist industry. It seems perfect sense to me that the fabric should be safeguarded by the taxpayer...a much more worthy cause (like free hospital parking) than fighting wars that have little relevance to us.

Yes, the Anglican card I carry is these days rather tattered, but I disagree with ardcarp on both counts - admission charges and taxpayer assistance.

'Owner-occupiers' already bear responsibility for many of our historic buildings, while both NT and EH do their work through voluntary subscription. Cathedrals fall into the same bracket, and must use their assets to raise funds how best they may. If they pitch the charge right, it should not deter the sightseer; further donations can be encouraged ("£60,000 a week" etc); in some places, where the cathedral is the main attraction for visitors and so adds to the local economy, retailers can be urged to donate in response, even if times are hard. Actually, I think the cathedrals (etc) are to be congratulated on keeping the services free!

Tax-payer involvement on the grounds of 'established church' would lead to unwanted pressures. All other beliefs and sects, not to mention all manner of heathens, would feel justifiably aggrieved - it would not be hugely different if the cathedrals were just relics, but their active ministry rules out public funding. The fact that the CofE is also rather out of step with today's zeitgeist , often engaging in internecine squabbles, reduces any claims even further.

Presumably the cathedrals could alleviate their problems by dumping their choirs and organs - just as we could all solve our own worst difficulties by arranging a cardiectomy. Let's hope both they and we find better solutions.

[Flosshilde]

These great medieval buildings are part of our national heritage and no doubt a great boost to the tourist industry.

& not just the modern tourist industry - when they were built they were the tourist industry, as centres of pilgrimage. Pilgrims visiting relics were expected to make a donation, & usually bought badges & other 'souvenirs' that showed they had made the pilgrimage, & were a major source of income for the churches, which competed to obtain prestigious relics that would boost their status & their visitor numbers. The following quote is taken from 'The Medieval Pilgrimage Business', published in Enterprise & Society, published by the OUP -

In this paper, we identify and elaborate on three economic aspects of pilgrimage. First, the pilgrimage journey, ending in a donation to the shrine of destination, may be viewed as one side of an implicit contract involving reciprocal rights and obligations on the part of the pilgrim and the church (below). Second, high and later medieval pilgrimage shrines were a form of franchise business, operating under the umbrella brand of the universal church: the local shrine managers marketed their patron saint and took in large-scale offerings that were recycled, in varying proportions, to the clergy, church building programmes, and the poor (below).3 Finally, ancillary pilgrimage services, such as the provision of accommodation, food and wine, transport, banking, and pilgrimage badges constituted an important economic activity, sometimes involving complex commercial relationships between the private sector and local church authorities (below). (http://es.oxfordjournals.org/content/12/3/601.full)

I did a fair amount of research around this for a dissertation, & there is quite an extensive literature, & it's clear that medieval people also were expected to pay.

[MrGongGong]

I think you will find that the loss of 0% VAT rating is already having a huge effect on many organ restoration projects.

[Wolsey]

I think you will find that the loss of 0% VAT rating is already having a huge effect on many organ restoration projects.

As someone who is himself looking forward to the planned restoration of the instrument over which I preside, I'd be interested to know of these "many" organ restoration projects of which you speak, as well as the "loss of 0% VAT". The Chancellor's proposed move is a separate issue to the scheme (begun in 2006) which enabled the recovery of VAT under the Listed Places of Worship Grant Scheme, and which ended in March 2011.

[cloughie]

I think you will find that the loss of 0% VAT rating is already having a huge effect on many organ restoration projects.

Bit like pasties then ?

[MrGongGong]

As someone who is himself looking forward to the planned restoration of the instrument over which I preside, I'd be interested to know of these "many" organ restoration projects of which you speak, as well as the "loss of 0% VAT". The Chancellor's proposed move is a separate issue to the scheme (begun in 2006) which enabled the recovery of VAT under the Listed Places of Worship Grant Scheme, and which ended in March 2011.

I'm not an expert but was chatting to someone I know who is an organ consultant who was telling me about this.
I'm sure that whoever you get to advise would know much more than me.
Or BIOS etc etc ............ and then I run out of knowledge

[Miles Coverdale]

It is interesting that the Anglican Church is the established church, i.e. connected with the state and the monarchy, and yet receives no financial support from it.

I think you'll find that it does enjoy certain tax exemptions.

On the subject of York and entry fees, paying the fee does entitle you to return any number of times within a year for nothing.

[Magnificat]

No. The Chancellor announced in the Budget that approved alterations to listed buildings - which, unlike repairs and maintenance are currently zero-rated - will be charged at the standard rate of 20% VAT from October. .

Wolsey,

I am sure you are right but irrespective of the difference between alterations and repairs and maintenance the Budget change will still involve cathedrals concerned in the loss of big sums of money. Look at poor Wakefield just started massive inside works and will have to find another £200,000! for which they had not originally budgeted.

VCC

[Magnificat]

[QUOTE=ardcarp;147833] Admission fees are an outrage whether you are a practising Christian or not. Ds and Cs just do not try hard enough. They need to make the 'Friends of the Cathedral' groups much more active in fund-raising, and they need to get cyber-savvy and do some online fund-raising too./QUOTE]

ardcarp

I think many cathedrals are becoming much more sophisticated in the way they go about raising funds.

Cathedrals often advertise new and well paid posts for officers in the fields of development and public relations and promotion in the Church Times and other publications for example.

There is certainly a lot of networking going on at St Albans and the three big fund raising trusts covering Fabric, Music and Education have been very successful. These are entirely separate from the Fraternity of Friends of the Abbey which does great work in helping to fund smaller but no less important projects in various areas of the cathedral's life and work.

VCC

[Simon]

I'm with ardcarp on this one, except as regards state funding - that would be a can or worms. I shall never pay an admission charge to any cathedral or church on principle - a church should be open to anyone of any means all the time - but if I can I shall always donate.

[mercia]

"Wakefield Cathedral Dean's wife in VAT song protest" shock horror

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-17633844

They're in a sticky situation having ripped out the nave and suddenly with an extra £200,000 to find. I wonder what the Prime Minister will say in reply to the Dean's letter of protest.

[gurnemanz]

When I was a student in Durham 40 years ago, I used to be able to take a delightful shortcut from my college on the the Bailey (St Cuthbert's) via the cathedral cloisters and across the nave to Palace Green for the Library and Students' Union. Sometimes it would coincide with Choral Evensong. I am pleased that present-day students can still do so without being charged a fee.

[Vile Consort]

I seem to remember that York Minster offers free admission to people who live in the city. And they certainly don''t conduct the congregation out of the building after evensong.

On the other hand, when I attended evensong at the Abbey, I paused to look at something in the nave on the way in and was swooped upon and taken to the quire. Dawdling evidently isn't allowed. I am surprised they don't supply blindfolds.

[mercia]

I wonder if it is an astute ploy to ask for donations rather than charge a fee, because in that way they may end up receiving more from particularly generous people.

how naive I was. at Durham they ask people to donate £5 but on average receive 32p per visitor

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-17432028

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-17434130