King's Choir on BBC2/BBC HD on Holy Saturday, 17.05

[Miles Coverdale]

Perhaps I am being too picky, but it was not what I would expect of a choir of that reputation. Plenty of conductors do have large gestures, and their ensembles react accordingly. However, on this, and other, occasions, I felt that the choir almost carried on regardless of what arm/body actions SC was doing.

No one seems to have considered the fact that TV programmes like this are not recorded live. In other words, sound and pictures are not recorded at the same time. So, if it doesn't look like the choir is reacting to what Stephen Cleobury is doing, it's probably because they're miming to playback for the third time. Do you really think it's possible to achieve a perfect take of the sound, with a number of changes of camera angle, all in one go?

[ardcarp]

Perhaps someone will tell us exactly how these programmes are recorded and produced.

[Miles Coverdale]

Perhaps someone will tell us exactly how these programmes are recorded and produced.

Well, in the case of those cathedral choir inserts in a programme like Songs of Praise, you do an audio-only take and, providing that doesn't crash and burn, you then mime to playback as many times as are necessary until the director has got all the picture shots s/he wants. TV is far more concerned with the look of something than the sound of it.

If you are a singer, you can usually tell when a choir is miming. You know how much physical effort is required to, for example, sing a big Handel chorus. That's very difficult to fake, so if you're not actually doing but miming, it probably won't look like you're doing it.

On the King's broadcast, the choir starts off singing When I survey the wondrous cross with not a microphone in sight. They then process thirty yards down to the stalls and the sound doesn't change one little bit. Go figure, as they say.

[Cantor]

No one seems to have considered the fact that TV programmes like this are not recorded live. In other words, sound and pictures are not recorded at the same time. So, if it doesn't look like the choir is reacting to what Stephen Cleobury is doing, it's probably because they're miming to playback for the third time. Do you really think it's possible to achieve a perfect take of the sound, with a number of changes of camera angle, all in one go?

I very much appreciate this, having worked a bit in TV for things like Songs of Praise.

However, this, in a way, reinforces my points. If the sound is recorded first, then surely that should be spot on, regardless of what SC is doing? I felt that on several occasions it wasn't.

And yes, I can also appreciate that after the 12th take of singing a hymn and then sitting down it gets boring, but surely that's no reason to get lazy. How many times does the (broadcast) director need to film them sitting down? If what was shown was the best that the choir can do, then I am rather shocked.

Even taking into consideration that it was a pre-recoreded TV broadcast, which is not the same as a normal service or live radio broadcast, I still found some aspects of the choir poor, especially if the sound was done first.

[MrGongGong]

There is an omission in the details above which means that Stephen Cleobury's background was not "completely orthodox". The link (http://youtu.be/8iV5xIukjfk) which I mentioned in another thread leads to a lengthy interview of him, and 47 minutes and 45 seconds into it, he talks about the 3-4 years he spent (after his Cambridge student years) as Organist at St Matthew's, Northampton where he ran the voluntary church choir which included local children - some from poor backgrounds - whom he had to recruit. He was also Director of Music at Northampton Grammar School where he enjoyed teaching the older year groups, but admits he found the [KS3] class teaching a "challenge". He also directed the amateur Northampton Bach Choir. He mentions in the interview that he appreciates the experience of these years of working at the 'coal face' and of "getting his knees brown".

I thought this was a spoof to start with ?

It's not exactly "Unorthodox" is it ?
I mean what about the 2 years he spent touring as a hammond organist in a freakshow ? or the excursions into Siberian Death metal ? Or even the collaborations with Dr Dre ?

Down in da hood at Northampton Grammar innit
he even had some children from "poor backgrounds" in his choir and he even had to "recruit" them ........ that would mean "TALKING TO THEM"
give that man a carrot

I know he is a great musician and whether he flaps his wings like an albatross or a gannet makes no difference at all IMV

[Miles Coverdale]

However, this, in a way, reinforces my points. If the sound is recorded first, then surely that should be spot on, regardless of what SC is doing? I felt that on several occasions it wasn't.

In my experience, you get one take at the sound. Providing it doesn't fall apart, they'll use that, becasue they're far more interested in the pictures. So, unless the choir is perfect in every take (and which choir is?), there'll be imperfections.

And yes, I can also appreciate that after the 12th take of singing a hymn and then sitting down it gets boring, but surely that's no reason to get lazy. How many times does the (broadcast) director need to film them sitting down? If what was shown was the best that the choir can do, then I am rather shocked.

Oh, for heaven's sake. May I suggest that there are more important things to be 'rather shocked' about than whether a choir - yes, even King's - stands up or sits down in perfect unison. I doubt whether the picture director could care less about the sitting down - s/he'll use a take in which they sit down. Far more important is getting just the right close up on the stained glass window (or whatever). Time is money, and they're not going to waste either getting multiple takes of the choir sitting down just to please people like you.

[MrGongGong]

Oh, for heaven's sake. May I suggest that there are more important things to be 'rather shocked' about than whether a choir - yes, even King's - stands up or sits down in perfect unison. I doubt whether the picture director could care less about the sitting down - s/he'll use a take in which they sit down. Far more important is getting just the right close up on the stained glass window (or whatever). Time is money, and they're not going to waste either getting multiple takes of the choir sitting down just to please people like you.

Some people (and I guess i'm not the only one with this experience?) seem to spend more time rehearsing standing up and sitting down than the actual music !

[Cantor]

In my experience, you get one take at the sound. Providing it doesn't fall apart, they'll use that, becasue they're far more interested in the pictures. So, unless the choir is perfect in every take (and which choir is?), there'll be imperfections.

Fine, but not to the extent that I felt there was.

Oh, for heaven's sake. May I suggest that there are more important things to be 'rather shocked' about than whether a choir - yes, even King's - stands up or sits down in perfect unison. I doubt whether the picture director could care less about the sitting down - s/he'll use a take in which they sit down. Far more important is getting just the right close up on the stained glass window (or whatever). Time is money, and they're not going to waste either getting multiple takes of the choir sitting down just to please people like you.

Standing and sitting is easy, does not need much rehearsal, just some sort of signal to ensure that everyone does it together. My point is that all the choirs I've worked with have managed to stand/sit perfectly fine after a few moments rehearsal with a clear signal, so why can't Kings?

[DracoM]

In their defence, in any one chorister's / choral scholar's life time in the choir, KCC must be the most recorded, the most televised, thus the most bored and bruised by such events as MC relates than almost any boy/girl-led choir in UK.

The number of sessions they have to do just for the variety of Christmas packages alone is daunting, and keeping choir members interested, up for it and delivering their best is a triumph of will over inclination. If the BBC and / or others now start insisting that they do the same packages for Easter, their lives are hardly going to be worth living. A tiny side issue is that many members of that choir also have hugely important exams at sundry seasons as well.

In some ways it is lucky that they are not a cathedral choir because they would have to do everything that they do do PLUS the whole gamut of regular services eg Christmas, but also eg Holy Week / Easter etc.

[mopsus]

King's College Choir certainly used to do Holy Week and Easter services a few years ago. My godson was christened at an Easter Sunday Eucharist there where they performed the Frank Martin Mass.

The load is slightly lightened by the fact that the 'Carols from King's' TV broadcasts are not recorded every year, but are sometimes repeats of the previous year's.

[Wolsey]

I thought this was a spoof to start with ?

Really? Just because you didn't know what he did after he left Cambridge?

It's not exactly "Unorthodox" is it ?

Whatever. You used the word 'unorthodox' though.

[DracoM]

Yes, IIRC they do sing Easter Sunday a.m. and p.m., but many cathedral choirs ALSO sing long Good Friday services and midnight services on Holy Saturday as well as Eucharist / CE on the Easter Sunday, plus other services midweek. And, of course, while the rest of the choral scholars' mates have either gone down after term, or in the case of the boys in the Choir School, friends have already gone home - true for any choir school-based choir, of course.

[mopsus]

I've been to Good Friday services at King's too and I think they used to do Maundy Thursday.

[Nick Armstrong]

I've been to Good Friday services at King's too and I think they used to do Maundy Thursday.

Indeed. My recollection is that there was a sequence of services during Holy Week, starting perhaps on Wednesday if not earlier - they were a highlight of the year if one was around that week. They were the basis for one of the loveliest of all King's recordings, the 'Music for Holy Week' disc from the Ledger era: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Music-for-Ho.../dp/B001J9B5I2

Always in the machine in our family during the relevant period (and many other times too)

[mopsus]

You can find out what King's were up to this Holy Week by getting a music list from this page:

http://www.kings.cam.ac.uk/events/chapel-services.html

They didn't do Palm Sunday or an evening service on Holy Saturday, but otherwise had a pretty full programme from Maundy Thursday on, including the Frank Martin Mass again.