CE slot Wed, 28th March: Schubert

[DracoM]

On the BBC R3 schedule for Wed, 28th March:

"A Passiontide Devotion live from St Paul's Church, Knightsbridge, London, led by the Revd Alan Gyle and based around the movements of Schubert's 'Stabat Mater' in F minor D.383 which he composed in 1816 to F.G.Klopstock's paraphrase into German of the Latin sequence. It wasn't performed publicly until 5 years after Schubert's death. "

Organist Richard Pearce
BBC Singers
Directed by David Hill.



I apologise that no further details of readings, which movements of the Stabat Mater are available at the time of posting, or whether it will be in the 'paraphrase' German or the original Latin.

[underthecountertenor]

I would have thought it obvious that, if Schubert composed a setting of Klopstock's German paraphrase of the Latin sequence, and the choir is performing the setting, then we will hear the words of the German paraphrase which Schubert set. I would also have thought it fairly obvious that, if the schedule says that the devotion will be based around 'the movements' of Schubert's Stabat Mater, then all the movements will be performed (not least since it is in the context of a completist Schubert season).

[DracoM]

So kind.

[underthecountertenor]

Thanks, but, then again, what do I know?

[Simon]

I most certainly should be as written, i.e. in German. I can't imagine they'll play about with that. Actually, it isn't really a Stabat Mater at all. Musically, it's a masterpiece of choral writing, with a lovely fugue, and in F minor to boot - a rare key for Schubert. Whether or not the BBCS will do it justice remains to be seen: that it will be technically correct and precise I don't doubt; that the sounds produced will be anything like those that Schubert intended is another matter.

[Gabriel Jackson]

I most certainly should be as written, i.e. in German. I can't imagine they'll play about with that. Actually, it isn't really a Stabat Mater at all. Musically, it's a masterpiece of choral writing, with a lovely fugue, and in F minor to boot - a rare key for Schubert. Whether or not the BBCS will do it justice remains to be seen: that it will be technically correct and precise I don't doubt; that the sounds produced will be anything like those that Schubert intended is another matter.

What sounds did Schubert intend, to your knowledge, that the BBC Singers are are so unlikely to produce?

[Simon Biazeck]

Yes, an excellent question - lighten our darkness!

[Doctor Mangetout]

I too would love to know what sounds Schubert intended.

[Simon]

I too would love to know what sounds Schubert intended.

Then I suggest you do as I have done over the years and research the vocal forces that a particular composer knew and for which, therefore, he wrote.

If one then applies this knowledge to the scores, one generally sees a correlation. It isn't rocket science.

[Miles Coverdale]

But isn't that argument rather like saying that Mozart (for example) should only ever be played on the fortepiano, because that is what he knew and therefore wrote for (the modern grand piano not having been invented yet)? Does not the greatest music transcend the performing medium?

[Simon Biazeck]

Simon,

This is interesting, but rather general at the moment. Please tell us what those vocal forces were, and exactly what they sounded like. It sounds like you've done thorough research and put it into practice. Are there any recordings you would recommend which achieve the sounds Schubert intended?

[Simon]

But isn't that argument rather like saying that Mozart (for example) should only ever be played on the fortepiano, because that is what he knew and therefore wrote for (the modern grand piano not having been invented yet)? Does not the greatest music transcend the performing medium?

Yes, it is, perhaps, "rather like" the example you give. And I expect that much great music may, on occasions, transcend the performing medium. But of course, as always, "it depends".

Some Baroque woodwind concertos can sound wonderful with a brass instrument. Many harpsichord pieces work on the modern piano (though some - for example Bach's Italian concerto - don't, in my humble opinion, quite hit the spot on a Steinway). I've heard B5 1st movement arranged for brass band, which was singularly unimpressive, I've heard a travesty of a Bach organ work arranged for string orchestra and I've heard various Lieder sung by women. On the other hand, some of WT Best's transcriptions for organ are little short of miraculous and there is much that has been arranged from voice to orchestra that seems to work very well.

As regards vocal and choral, however, which is what concerns the thread, I'm not sure that a man would pull off Casta Diva in quite the way that Caballe has managed it, nor that Annette Dasch would manage Erl-konig. I trust few would disagree... In the same way I don't think that, say, Gloucester cathedral choir would be appropriate on stage as the chorus in Nabucco, or that the Met opera chorus could effectively sing Purcell's "Hear my Prayer" - at least, not as Henry and everyone else involved in sacred music who has come after him would have expected it to be sung.

So, whilst we can all no doubt find examples of music that has sucessfully crossed the boundary between what or whom it was originally written for and various other forces or instruments, my original comment stands.

That the BBCS can manage some repertoire beautifully isn't in doubt. That they can offer appropriate vocal forces for all choral music is clearly a non-starter. What they manage to make of D383 remains to be heard.

[Gabriel Jackson]

Then I suggest you do as I have done over the years and research the vocal forces that a particular composer knew and for which, therefore, he wrote.

If one then applies this knowledge to the scores, one generally sees a correlation. It isn't rocket science.

And how do you know what the vocal forces the composer "knew" sounded like? And what about the possibility that the composer envisaged performances by forces other than those for whom the piece was written?