CE King's College, Cambridge 29th Feb 2012

[Wolsey]

That is a tradition in the Anglican practice of plainchant...IMO grossly overdone.

It's hardly Anglican. The chant expert the late Mary Berry writes that "it is always important to make a good pause at the mediant cadence, long enough for the sound to die away completely." Admittedly, a "good pause" can be made excessive.

I think Kings do so-called 'modern' repertory rather well, and I thought the trebles (solo and en masse) were obviously very competent musically; to navigate through the Ades was no mean feat. I kept asking myself what The Fayrfax Carol (a King's Christmas commission?) had to do with Lent. No doubt someone with a theological bent will tell me!

Apparently, the text of the Fayrfax Carol ( http://www.kings.cam.ac.uk/events/ch...7.html#fayrfax ) looks beyond Lent towards Christ's Passion. A 'carol' is not a synonym for a Christmas song.

[ardcarp]

It's hardly Anglican. The chant expert the late Mary Berry writes that "it is always important to make a good pause at the mediant cadence, long enough for the sound to die away completely." Admittedly, a "good pause" can be made excessive.

Wolsey; I agree that 'plainchant' is usially thought of in connection with the Roman Rite. However there is a long and honorable tradition of plainchant in the higher reaches of the Anglican church. In my lay-clerk days we always sang the psalms (in English...good old Briggs and Frere) to painchant in Lent and Advent (except Sundays) and we observed that long pause at the half verse. I've also done likewise in other Anglo-Cathjolic churches from time to time, and sung acres of the stuff in Latin at 'concert' type venues. I was lucky enough to have done a whole day plainsong workshop with the late lamented Mary Berry, which resulted in a 'performance' in an extremely resonant RC Abbey. Indeed she left the 'mediant cadence' just long enough to die away. I sometimes feel that Anglicans, knowing this 'rule', often take it to ridiculous excess. I had time to make a cup of tea and do the Times crossword in the half-verses at King's yesterday.

[jean]

I don't understand the complaints that this was more like a concert than a service...

I never understand those.

[DracoM]

The KCC mediant cadence gap on air WAS excessive and to my ears and very slightly silly given the context. BTW, Mary Berry, sincere and many blessings on her, was not the only one with ideas about how to sing plainchant. The Benedictine way [Dom Saulnier et al] has more flexibility, insists that it is structured like a question and answer and not a rigidly interpreted full stop. I felt that the KCC way was pretty nearly that - a full stop. Certainly acoustic plays a part, BUT KCC / any choir in a big space have a problem in a broadcast service context in that the on-site acoustic is long - so the KCC pause was just possibly OK in the chapel, BUT via mics, it's too long. Question: which do you pay attention to? IME, Anglican choirs sometimes have a tendency to lengthen the cadence pause rather more than monastic choirs would eg the Tallis Scholars are IMO too long. Verses should probably follow each other quite quickly, but the mediant cadence can be longer. AAMOI, records of complaints about the length of such cadence pauses go back literally hundreds of years and has always been a bone of contention.

And please don't be patronising - I think we all know that carols are not exclusively for Christmas.

[underthecountertenor]

I would not even concede that the service was that well sung. Trebles sounded distinctly wobbly in the Mag and, to my ears, flat in places in the Radcliffe. And the tenors sounded overstretched in places, particularly in the (frankly rather ridiculous) Richard Baker piece. The word 'hubris' kept floating into my head.

[Gabriel Jackson]

And please don't be patronising - I think we all know that carols are not exclusively for Christmas.

In whch case, why were you questioning its suitablity for Lent?

[Gabriel Jackson]

...the (frankly rather ridiculous) Richard Baker piece.

What was ridiculous about it, exactly?

[underthecountertenor]

Well I was laughing within the first couple of bars - all those repeated "is it"s. I'm sure the composer felt he had a sound textual reason for doing it, but was it actually intended to be funny? (Gabriel: you can probably enlighten me on that!) I assumed not, which is why I found it, literally, ridiculous (i.e. laughable). Of course, Gabriel, that's subjective, and I should have said that I found it ridiculous. More generally, I didn't think it added up to much, and it didn't help that I thought it overstretched the tenors. Perhaps I am being unfair, and I should give it another chance. However, I should add that I happened to mention it last night in the company of a few people who, it turned out, had sung it at another Cambridge college, and it was clear from the eye-rolling that I was not entirely alone in my opinion.

[Gabriel Jackson]

Well I was laughing within the first couple of bars - all those repeated "is it"s. I'm sure the composer felt he had a sound textual reason for doing it, but was it actually intended to be funny? (Gabriel: you can probably enlighten me on that!) I assumed not, which is why I found it, literally, ridiculous (i.e. laughable). Of course, Gabriel, that's subjective, and I should have said that I found it ridiculous. More generally, I didn't think it added up to much, and it didn't help that I thought it overstretched the tenors. Perhaps I am being unfair, and I should give it another chance. However, I should add that I happened to mention it last night in the company of a few people who, it turned out, had sung it at another Cambridge college, and it was clear from the eye-rolling that I was not entirely alone in my opinion.

I suppose if you find repetition amusing, it is ridiculous. Presumably quite a lot of music is ridiculous for the same reason, that repetition is involved? Those repeated "is it"s are part of a clear musical process, and I assume the emphasis on those two words is deliberate also, since several lines of the text begin with them.

[underthecountertenor]

Repetition is not necessarily amusing, or ridiculous, in and of itself. It depends on what is being repeated. I think I made it clear enough that it was what was being repeated in that case that I found ridiculous. Given that, as you say, several lines of the text begin with the words 'is it,' I am not sure that those words need the yet further emphasis accorded them by the composer. Beyond that, I defer to you as the expert!

[underthecountertenor]

...and of course our tastes do not always diverge: see the thread on Tippett St John.

[Gabriel Jackson]

Repetition is not necessarily amusing, or ridiculous, in and of itself. It depends on what is being repeated. I think I made it clear enough that it was what was being repeated in that case that I found ridiculous. Given that, as you say, several lines of the text begin with the words 'is it,' I am not sure that those words need the yet further emphasis accorded them by the composer. Beyond that, I defer to you as the expert!

I think you probably need to get out more...

[underthecountertenor]

You'd be surprised.

[Nick Armstrong]

Good to see that as well as Evensong, the good old C of E tradition for internecine bickering is going strong!

[underthecountertenor]

Absolutely. You can't beat it!