CE Hereford Cathedral 22nd Feb 2012

[Miles Coverdale]

MC

Would a contrafactum be the right term to use then when hymn words are substituted for better known vernacular texts eg ' While Shepherds Watched ' for 'On Ilkley Moor' or ' I cannot Tell' for 'Danny Boy' ( Londonderry Air ). It seems so.

VCC.

It would be. The earliest use of the term is in the 15th-century Pfulligen manuscript, where it applies to the textual adaptation of a secular melody for sacred use. Although, as has been pointed out, the tune for While Shepherds Watched originally comes from Este's Psalter of 1592.

[Finzi4ever]

I do not doubt that Michael Tavinor (whom I first met when he was at Ely) likes to chant, and have heard him do so. The question remains, however: are there foundations where the dean will sing the Office when there are other canons/minor canons present on whom the duty may fall?

quite simply, yes.

[Wolsey]

I'm pleased to hear it.

[Magnificat]

At St Albans where the post of Precentor was abolished some years ago and replaced by two minor canonrys I have heard Evensong sung by the current minor canon ( liturgy ), the current and a previous minor canon ( young people ) - Fr Stuart Cradduck - the finest clergy voice I have ever heard, the current and previous Dean. the current and previous Sub - Dean, the current and previous Canon Chancellor and the current Archdeacon. The clergy at the Abbey have to be versatile!!

I have also heard it sung by various lay clerks and once by the Head Chorister ( now an excellent tenor ) who stood in at a midweek boys' voices service when the Precentor at the time got stuck at London Bridge station one afternoon!

VCC

[PeterboroughDiapason]

It would be. Although, as has been pointed out, the tune for While Shepherds Watched originally comes from Este's Psalter of 1592.

Actually, the "Ilkley Moor" tune (Cranbrook) was written by Thomas Clarke for the hymn 'Grace 'tis a charming sound' and published in Clark's first book A Sett of Psalm & Hymn Tunes in 1805.

Cranbrook was later used as a tune for the Christmas hymn 'While shepherds watched their flocks by night' and later still used as the tune for the Yorkshire song 'On Ilkla Moor Baht 'at'.

[ardcarp]

There is something quite touching about a non-professional-sounding clergy voice doing the responses. It's always a bonus if they can sing in tune, but to take a reductio ad absurdum would you want to hear, say, Jonathan LeMalu intoning 'O Lord open thou our lips' ? There is in the same way some touching and sincere about hearing genuine monks sing plainsong...i.e. not trained singers. Flat they may be on the upper notes, but there is a certain 'rightness' about it.

[Gabriel Jackson]

There is something quite touching about a non-professional-sounding clergy voice doing the responses. It's always a bonus if they can sing in tune, but to take a reductio ad absurdum would you want to hear, say, Jonathan LeMalu intoning 'O Lord open thou our lips' ? There is in the same way some touching and sincere about hearing genuine monks sing plainsong...i.e. not trained singers. Flat they may be on the upper notes, but there is a certain 'rightness' about it.

When we recorded a disc of my work at St Mary's, Edinburgh, we had the Precentor do them for that very reason. We could have had a layclerk sing them beautifully, but that priestly authority was absolutely right.

[Miles Coverdale]

Actually, it may be misleading to say that Winchester Old comes from Este's Psalter of 1592. Because I'm a bit sad I looked it up, and found that the melody of Winchester Old is actually the tenor part of the tune which is used for a metrical version of Psalm 84, and the harmonisation is quite different. It is ascribed to G(eorge) Kirbye. Wikipedia says that the tune may itself have been arranged from Tye's The Acts of the Apostles, but I haven't looked into that.

[Magnificat]

There is something quite touching about a non-professional-sounding clergy voice doing the responses. It's always a bonus if they can sing in tune, but to take a reductio ad absurdum would you want to hear, say, Jonathan LeMalu intoning 'O Lord open thou our lips' ? There is in the same way some touching and sincere about hearing genuine monks sing plainsong...i.e. not trained singers. Flat they may be on the upper notes, but there is a certain 'rightness' about it.

ardcarp,

I can see this, of course, but how does a DoM guard against the choir being sent wrong by an unreliable Precentor?

VCC.

[ardcarp]

VCC I did add that it helps if they sing in tune! However, one usually hears good choirs coming in dead in tune after, say, the Collects have gone up or down a bit. As I'm sure you know, choristers who rehearse regularly with a piano develop a keen sense of pitch (I hate to bandy about that word 'perfect'). I remember, during full rehearsals in the cathedral, the O&C taking a piece apart without bothering to give notes for re-starting; the boys just 'knew' the pitch.
(Whether this applies in places such as Lichfield where the organ is very sharp I don't know. Maybe they have their song-school piano tuned to match.)

[David Underdown]

The instrument in the Peterborough song school certainly used to be tuned to match the organ

[Finzi4ever]

ardcarp,

I can see this, of course, but how does a DoM guard against the choir being sent wrong by an unreliable Precentor?

VCC.

by ensuring the cantor has a tuning fork for pitch, rather than a pitch fork for tuning..