McCreesh on The Choir

[ardcarp]

The Gabrielis strayed into Bax and Howells...and why not? But I found Mr McCreesh's assertion that 'Howells had been ruined by amateur choirs' (or words to that effect) a tad arrogant! The following statements are incontroverible:

A lot of music has been ruined by amateur choirs
A lot of music has been ruined by professional choirs
Some performances of Howells by amateur choirs are excellent
Some performances of Howells by professional choirs are excellent

...and I thought The Gabrieli Consort's account of 'Take Him Earth' was very good.

Paul McCreesh said one thing with which I heartily agree, however; that the very best professional consort singers in small choirs such as The Sixteen and The Gabrieli Consort are not paid according to their lights. Much travelling and time away from home is poorly remunerated. And the small, superb groups of which the UK has several are poorly treated...i.e. no cash from Arts funding bodies....compared with orchestras.

Anyone else hear the programme?

[decantor]

I - oh dear! - three-quarter listened while composing some urgent emails. I found McCreesh's spoken contribution very engaging: his insistence on risk-taking seemed slightly at odds with the Gabrieli's highly polished versions of Monteverdi and Take Him Earth (during which email composition was paused), yet his words were by no means hollow, as the excitement generated in their eponymous composer's work illustrated. But it struck me that risk-taking is a sine-qua-non in many amateur choirs, or those involving children - I rather think he was referring to a more professional level of boat-out-pushing. The absence of funding for choral endeavour is well documented, and McCreesh was right to complain that even a little financial help would make a world of difference. It was sad to hear that 95% of his work took place abroad. His enthusiasm for music after thirty years of slog was heart-warming; his disillusionment with the British 'system' was a warning that those in high places might do well to heed.

I was also interested in the snippet of the programme that told us that Ceremony of Carols was to be turned into a ballet, with the Canterbury choristers on stage with the dancers. I couldn't help wondering if the whole work was involved - is the solo That Yonge Childe at all balletic? It would be fascinating to see - a spectacle soon available to the good folks of Canterbury.

[DracoM]

Yes, I heard it and McCreesh's contributions were for me the best part of it. No side, no airy-fairy tosh, just down to earth common sense about a lot of things.

Ref Howells: I have always thought H more difficult to sing but infinitely more rewarding for both singer and listener than is often credited, possibly because so many choirs sing H, the inner subtleties can get lost a bit, and yes, I have heard and [ssshh!] been singing in bits of Howells that have gone wrong. Once sung in a Coll Reg Eucharist that very nearly ground to a halt when altos failed to come in and nervous trebs looked up thinking that some Act of God had stopped the service. Tenors and Basses sang on staring at each other across choir with a wild surmise for a couple of bars until the DoM sang a treble note to get the lads in and we were off.

I like McC's recreations, and the fact that by and large he insists on gravelly basses and 'straight' sops. I'm sure scholars could pull his recreations apart, but whenever listening to them, you always feel that the original could well have been like this. Victoria Requiem a 6 for example.

[ardcarp]

It was sad to hear that 95% of his work took place abroad

It is indeed the case that our best small choirs have to travel. Exaudi for instance has recently had gigs in IRCAM and another (also in France I think) doing the John Cage song book. Can you imagine HMG funding this sort of thing? I'm sure someone such as Chris Watson could chip in here, but it is my certain knowledge that most members of these small and highly competent choirs do it because they love it...amateurs of music in the French sense. If they wanted to be well-remunerated and have pensions they would certainly be better off doing something else....teaching, even. Thank goodness for their dedication.

[pole_2_pole]

... If they wanted to be well-remunerated and have pensions they would certainly be better off doing something else....teaching, even. Thank goodness for their dedication.

Yes, they are dedicated. Yes, they love it. But it is also a job, and a job that they rely on to support themselves and their families (if they have them..) just like the rest of us.

It infuriates me that these musicians aren't paid a proper wage that is in line with their skills and abilities. The penny pinching attitude towards funding music, and the arts in general in this country makes a mockery of the attitudes and deeper pockets of, say, the French or Americans (the latter probably more inclined to orchestras but hey-ho).

Take John Eliot Gardiner and his ensembles... April 2011 to June 2012: Approx. 43 concerts in total; 35 in Europe and 8 in the UK.

Most of these 'great' choirs are from the UK, and they all perform for the majority of their time OUT of the UK... Staggering really.

[rauschwerk]

It infuriates me that these musicians aren't paid a proper wage that is in line with their skills and abilities. The penny pinching attitude towards funding music, and the arts in general in this country makes a mockery of the attitudes and deeper pockets of, say, the French or Americans (the latter probably more inclined to orchestras but hey-ho).

Hear, hear! But sadly, I fear, it was ever thus. The essay at http://www.osborne-conant.org/arts_funding.htm may well be of interest, and suggests what could happen here if the Tories keep trying to move arts funding over to 'philanthropy'.

[Chris Watson]

I am listening again as I type - Paul speaks very well I think. Just got to the Berlioz (not my cup of tea, but great fun - and I didn't do that project as the very thought of it gives me a sore throat!) and will write more thoughts later.

[Old Grumpy]

I listened to the programme and thoroughly enjoyed it. I can't speak in any professional capacity, but he seemed to talk sense to me. I like their recreations - the Biber Missa Salisburgensis CD is particularly good. James Jolly seems to agree!

Every July the Gabrielis and other artists are in Northumberland for the Brinkburn music festival. This weekend has a very special place in my calendar.

OG

[mopsus]

I would have liked him to have said a bit more about the Berlioz, as well as describing how he felt at conducting such huge forces. Perhaps saying something about the use of space, as compared with that in Renaissance/Baroque music. (Unless I missed this elsewhere in the programme).

[Simon]

doing the John Cage song book. Can you imagine HMG funding this sort of thing?

You mean the taxpayer, ardcarp. No, I can't imagine it. Nor would I want to.

There is a wealth of glorious music out there, composed by superb musicians and gifted composers, but in these days of trying to get the economy straight I can't imagine the taxpayer stumping up even for that. A shame, but there we go.

[ardcarp]

Simon. Do you prefer our taxes to be spent sending our troops off (many not coming back) to fight pointless wars in the middle east?

[Chris Watson]

Paul makes several points, and he certainly speaks well on the radio. Apart from anything else, I hope the program makes the point that I have tried to make in the past, by showing that a professional choir can make a thoughtful recording of a piece like Take Him Earth. Paul isn't always the easiest guy to work for (and yes I've said that to him in the pub, using my own name and everything) but he really does care about the text, and has the time to devote to it. I'm also rather fond of the sound of the recent Gabs CDs - plenty of healthy vibrato/spin/colour without spoiling the music. Everyone should listen to Bax Mater Ora Filium - wonderful music. And (off topic, I know) if you like Bax, this is a wonderful CD http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item...._code=8.554507

[Simon]

Simon. Do you prefer our taxes to be spent sending our troops off (many not coming back) to fight pointless wars in the middle east?

Not quite sure what your point is here, old chap - and sorry for having missed the post and not responded earlier.

But as I'm sure you know, I would never advocate pointless wars, wherever they were.

[jean]

Everyone should listen to Bax Mater Ora Filium - wonderful music. And (off topic, I know) if you like Bax, this is a wonderful CD http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item...._code=8.554507

I've just LA'd it. It is a wonderful piece. Why is it so rarely done?

(Oddly, on the iPlayer page there's a mention of Gabrieli and Berlioz, but none of McCreesh until you click on more information. I thought I'd got the wrong week.)

[ardcarp]

Did the Bax just before Xmas, so not that rarely done. It is IMO a bit like the curate's egg. Lovely bits, but the part-writing does get unnecessarily fussy at times. Although it's double choir, each part subdivides quite a lot, so if you're a small group (as we were) you find yourself on your own quite a lot! It is however a quite unusual piece and an unusual medium for Bax. Agree it should be done more.