CE St Paul's Cathedral 1.2.12

[ardcarp]

Tippett Mag and Nunc...great pieces...probably the best executed. Picking up things both Draco and Secret Squirrel have hinted at, the timbre and the dynamics of the choir were, for me, relentless and unrelieved. There's a fine body of men back there, but surely the treble sound was just too forced trying to match it? The result was competent but, to my ears, mechanical. I would not be venturing these opinions were we not talking about one of the great and privileged musical establishments; but we are. The biggest disappointment for me was Videte Miraculum, a piece which I adore. I have never heard it stripped of its plainsong before. And the speed at which it was sung completely robbed it of line and expressiveness. Sorry.

The 'travelogue' caused a wry smile...engagement with pilgrims and visitors from all over the world. Erm......

[Simon Biazeck]

Hi Simon. I just pressed reply at the bottom! The Drome is amazingly quiet, considering where it is. I remember liking singing on the Sanctuary (it was for the Panufnik Mass recording, with an orchestra) but I think I prefer the Apse!

No problem! I definitely prefer the apse - heavenly!

[secret squirrel]

re recording in the stalls (or not)... this: http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page...86/101/850628/ was most certainly recorded in the stalls - I was there (last recording before Hyperion contract, I think), and it is to my ears THE St. Paul's benchmark recording: Barry's boys, Dearnley's (albeit possibly ignored...) direction and Scott's playing...

Anyone have a copy of the LP?

A superb recording (though some of the works might be rightly considered 'dated' today) and the Brahms... well I challenge anyone anywhere to trump it!

THIS is the St. Paul's sound I refer to; whether it ticks VCC / Magnificat's boxes I don't know, but I'd wager my house (well, the Landlord's house!) that it does!

SS

[Double Diapason]

re recording in the stalls (or not)... this: http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page...86/101/850628/ was most certainly recorded in the stalls - I was there (last recording before Hyperion contract, I think), and it is to my ears THE St. Paul's benchmark recording: Barry's boys, Dearnley's (albeit possibly ignored...) direction and Scott's playing...

Anyone have a copy of the LP?

A superb recording (though some of the works might be rightly considered 'dated' today) and the Brahms... well I challenge anyone anywhere to trump it!

THIS is the St. Paul's sound I refer to; whether it ticks VCC / Magnificat's boxes I don't know, but I'd wager my house (well, the Landlord's house!) that it does!

SS

Couldn't agree more SS, although anything that happened there between 1977 & 84 was stunning. One cant help but wonder how much better/different this recording would have been if Barry had directed it?

[secret squirrel]

DD: were Barry to have directed it, then Dearnley would have been playing... not Scott; I gather even that the Crotch on that recording has Scott playing with one hand what many have to use two for, but I could be mistaken there (I am no organist) - his playing was / is, even quite astounding.

That is all a little bit unfair, and rascally too, as I know you were referring to the singing, but if truth be told Dearnley was only in charge of the choir again for the '84/5 academic year (though of course nominally always so as "Organist"), and so there would only have been, say, six probationers under Barry who were then 3rd desk choristers (ie tacet throughout much of the recording!) in 85 when that recording was recorded (released in '86).

One has to remember too that the men then were all in their prime. By that I mean late 20s - late 40s (roughly speaking) - not unlike today, actually.

So would it have been any 'better/ different"? I doubt it !!

Yes, in my view too that decade was arguably the pinnacle of the best of St. Paul's and the Anglican choral tradition at large in a day when society had Sundays as special, and the CoE still used KJV and the Prayer Book as the default options - then came ASB and Common Worship and no end of "we could always get rid of the choir for a 'praise group'" !!

If you really want a trip down memory lane, Paul's Children the documentary made in the late 70s about a year as a chorister there is on You Tube in 6 installments (of 10 mins each); it will have the liberals amongst you ashen and the traditionalists reminiscing about the good old days, I'm sure !!

(they weren't always that good, I have to say!)

SS

[Double Diapason]

DD: were Barry to have directed it, then Dearnley would have been playing... not Scott; I gather even that the Crotch on that recording has Scott playing with one hand what many have to use two for, but I could be mistaken there (I am no organist) - his playing was / is, even quite astounding.

That is all a little bit unfair, and rascally too, as I know you were referring to the singing, but if truth be told Dearnley was only in charge of the choir again for the '84/5 academic year (though of course nominally always so as "Organist"), and so there would only have been, say, six probationers under Barry who were then 3rd desk choristers (ie tacet throughout much of the recording!) in 85 when that recording was recorded (released in '86).

One has to remember too that the men then were all in their prime. By that I mean late 20s - late 40s (roughly speaking) - not unlike today, actually.

So would it have been any 'better/ different"? I doubt it !!

Yes, in my view too that decade was arguably the pinnacle of the best of St. Paul's and the Anglican choral tradition at large in a day when society had Sundays as special, and the CoE still used KJV and the Prayer Book as the default options - then came ASB and Common Worship and no end of "we could always get rid of the choir for a 'praise group'" !!

If you really want a trip down memory lane, Paul's Children the documentary made in the late 70s about a year as a chorister there is on You Tube in 6 installments (of 10 mins each); it will have the liberals amongst you ashen and the traditionalists reminiscing about the good old days, I'm sure !!

(they weren't always that good, I have to say!)

SS

I agree about Paul's Children - a wonderful documentary which I have watched several times previously. I also agree that it is all a world away and while I think that Barry is without doubt the greatest sacred choral musician of his generation I doubt even he could get the results today he did then. All a very sad reflection of the times we live in - yes I am a traditionalist!
I believe it a great shame that Barry had to leave St Paul's and I actually think his best had yet to come there (hard to believe, but true). John played on Barry's last released recording of hymns (Hymns for all Seasons) and those two are an amazing combination!! It might well have been a repeated combination if Barry had have been allowed to stay.
Of course they have worked together since; recently in the USA. Barry himself told me 3-4 years ago that he accepted an invitation by John to St Thomas's only of John agreed to play while he directed ("just like the old days" he said!). I wish I could have been there to witness it - Barry was very excited about it!

[secret squirrel]

"Throwing the Cricket Ball" in a raining Sports' Day at Bellingham was not a particular highlight of the programme (or life) it must be said !!!!

That Barry is still up and at it at 78 this May I think (still teaching a choir in Exeter, if I am not mistaken) is a testament to a wonderful man and vocation.

I recall too when he left in the Summer '84 that he was allowed to remain in 4 Amen Court until the New Year. That Christmas a number of boys sang carols for him (un-invited) and John was there too!

I don't think it a fair measure for smaller cathedrals or churches, but I do wonder how many former choristers of Barry's are active professional musicians (not just singers) today against his immediate successors or predecessors and peers? I can think of a good few, actually... It was - IS, sorry! - his untiring zeal and 100% commitment to the music, worship and especially every individual boy that I feel sets him apart ("...even if you're not that good, every chorister of mine will sing at least one solo in St. Paul's Cathedral !") but as you say, today's society has its own pressures and rules that even he is not allowed to bend!

Anyway, I'm off now for another year until the flame that is St. Paul's CE attracts this nostalgic moth!

SS

[Magnificat]

[QUOTE=Double Diapason;127736] I think that Barry is without doubt the greatest sacred choral musician of his generation I doubt even he could get the results today he did then. All a very sad reflection of the times we live in - yes I am a traditionalist!
I believe it a great shame that Barry had to leave St Paul's and I actually think his best had yet to come there (hard to believe, but true).

DD

Judging by his choir at St Albans from 1988 to 1997 you are absolutely right. In many ways what he did with the resources he had at the Abbey was a greater achievement and he had to do it with boys who went to schools that were/are nowhere near as disciplined as the choir schools of his day. He proved that boys will give the commitment and accept tough discipline if they know that in doing so they will be the very best at what they do whether it is singing, sport or whatever. Of course, it also takes very gifted teacher to inspire kids in this way

Choir Schools had to change in order to reflect the times but the trouble is that with these changes went a lot of the rigour necessary to get the best results in my opinion.

VCC.

[DracoM]

On second or even third hearing. I have to say there seemed to be some intonation problems for the trebs under pressure - I thought one strong voice seemed fairly consistently veering to sharpness. Or was that just my imagination?

[taz]

Chris #25 - re: positioning of the choir at Durham. For last week's broadcast the choir were in the stalls, but the mics were positioned directly in front of each side (almost down the trebles throats), with I think only one mic further out (annoyingly at the opposite end from JBL ie away from where the choir was 'facing'). So I'm not surprised that the Stanford cds sound better!'

Re: this week, I hadn't heard the Tippett until this broadcast so listened with a 'fresh ear' if you like. I quite enjoyed them, although the Nunc was strangely unsatisfying somehow. Maybe it just needs another listen? I also thought that of the whole service they were probably what seemed the closest to what suits the choir's sound best. I was intrigued by the Farmer Lord's Prayer being sung with a more traditional set of words - does this happen elsewhere? I'm not sure it really works to be honest - but I liked the muscular approach to the responses generally. Taken at a nice brisk tempo too. That worked well for the responses, but I'd have to agree with a number of people who've mentioned a lack of dynamic variation in Videte Miraculum and Senex Puerum Portabat, which were both a bit 'shouty' for my liking (eg the tenors' ascending scale at 'adoravit' - a great sound, but for a different style of piece, maybe?). I've never been a massive Edwardian/Victoriana fan but after listening to that I was crying out to hear this choir sing some Dyson or something - a very strange sensation for me, I assure you!

[DracoM]

Maybe that's how DoM Carwood likes his trebles to sound? He's had long enough to fashion the treble sound he likes, and I imagine we just heard it.

[mopsus]

Nice to see this broadcast as the 'lead story' (or one of them) on the Radio 3 home page.

[mopsus]

I half-listened to the broadcast first time round, and was puzzled by the short Tallis. I am 'mopsus' and they are St. Paul's so they must know what they are doing, I thought. On listening a second time, I realise that the broadcast only fitted into the hour with a minute or so to spare, so maybe that was why the anthem was abridged. But I think I'd have preferred the Tallis with plainchant and repeats, and sacrificed instead some of the prayers or one of the hymns.

[DracoM]

Agreed! Chopping the anthem seemed a touch bizarre when there were other more disposable items?

[DracoM]

Members are respectfully recommended to check out last Sunday#s Evensong from St Thomas Fifth Ave NYC in which Tippett's St John's Cambridge canticles and a stunning Harvey anthem 'I love the Lord' get an airing in one pretty extraordinary live webcast.

Available at http://www.saintthomaschurch.org