CE St Paul's Cathedral 1.2.12

[Simon]

The excruciating, formulaic, typical Tippett excepted, I loved this service. It's ages since I was in St Pauls and IMO they haven't been stunningly good in any broadcasts over the past decade or so, but I thought they were today. As was the organist in the voluntary. Beautiful stuff.

Thanks to all, especially trebles. Good show lads!

Never heard that hymn before though.

bws to all

Simon

[Double Diapason]

I often judge a choir by the very first note or chord I hear. Today didn't start well! The cantor also wobbled his first note. Things got a lot better though and I am pleased that this choir seem to be finding form after a few seasons of some distinctly ropey performances both on radio 3 CE and at other times I have heard them in the flesh. I have a soft spot for St P's because it has the best organ on the planet (IMO), because of the building and because I believed it to be the best choir of its type at a time in the past. Maybe it will be again soon - today was a good step in the right direction!
I agree with VCC re refinement. To my ears the boys are just pushing it a bit to keep up with the men resulting in a coarser sound and I would prefer to hear the men blending with the boys rather than the other way round.
Excellent psalm singing and the Tippett.......well marmite music really, isnt it! Well done solo treble though, amazing job! Thought the organ playing a bit too safe here but it was too closely mic'd - we were both wrong re solo reeds CB! Probably BBC engineers yapping about the organ being too loud, as usual, rather than putting the mics in a sensible place. Its not impossible in that building as we have heard before.
Loved the Franck! Well done St Paul's, Andrew Carwood and Simon Johnson

[DracoM]

This time, the engineers seem to have decided to get closer to the choir. Well..........yes, it's not a panacea, but it did allow us to hear individual parts rather better than the last time we were at St P's.

Agree with DD about the opening of both service and the Byrd introit [ which was not on the whole very good], but it quickly became clear that there were possibly a handful of boys with big, mature voices and who had been identified as robust leaders. Good - up to a point. Except that as the service developed, that leadership particularly in [ slightly untidy ] psalms and responses [ the second set / Lord's Prayer maybe a tad beset by some over-eager leaders] became to my ears a tad edgy even strident, understandably, as DD said, because they were driven hard sometimes almost overwhelmed by the "competitive" strivings round them. The treble tone became unvaried and just loud - most of the service was f>fff. Now, I also fully agree with DD that after some relatively indifferent singing for some years, a new sound is emerging. Muscular, forthright, assertive. Clearly DoM Carwood has had a chance to audition, select and educate trebles to produce the sound he wants. Not sure I care for it much, but that's a matter of opinion of course. In that acoustic you do have a real problem, and maybe sheer brute untiring strength is what you have to settle for in the end?

As music, the Tippett canticles were for me simply purgatory. Hats off to all parts in getting their voices round it, - trebs and altos in the Mag - and particularly to the treb soloist in the Nunc. BUT they felt merely an intriguing musical exercise to me, sort of empty and pianistic, and certainly not idiomatically choral / vocal at all. Tricksy for the sake of it? Sorry - hated them.

One of my favourites, Videte Miraculum had little light or shade for me, and after a while, I found myself tutting at the relentlessness of it.

I think the choir is in a good deal better fettle than the last time we heard it, but it feels just a bit lacking in warmth, efficient enough, but.....but....? Is this sound what the DoM is setting out to produce? Would be interesting to know.

Franck voluntary - I was hoping for a bit more wooomph, but that may not be Mr Johnson's fault.




PS Senex puerum portabat can be heard on today's webcast evensong from St T, NYC. It is available for some time.

[jean]

I didn't realis until I heard this truncated version how important it is to sing Videte miraculum as written, with all the plainsong and all the repeats.

[Gabriel Jackson]

I didn't realis until I heard this truncated version how important it is to sing Videte miraculum as written, with all the plainsong and all the repeats.

Yes, that was very odd.

As for the Tippett, I find it sad that, after nearly 50 years it still provokes such adverse reactions from some listeners. For me it is one of the few masterpieces written for the Anglican church since the war - thrillingly exuberant and exhilarating in the Magnificat, and a still fresh and imaginative response to these most familiar of texts from a very great composer.

[Chris Watson]

Tippett's a funny chap - not half so famous as Britten but extremely interesting when you get to know him. Plebs Angelica, written for Canterbury in the 1940s is an absolute masterpiece, and I think his canticles for St John's are very fine. Difficult and challenging (which is rare in the repertoire) but good nonetheless. And I enjoyed the service. I just wish the BBC would get the Hyperion engineers to place the mics. They know the buildings, and make CDs worth listening to again and again, yet the Beeb produce live broadcasts that sound as if they were sung in outer space.

[Simon Biazeck]

Hi Chris!

I too enjoyed the service. Interesting points. I would agree here the BBC sound here was problematic and I also agree that the Hyperion sound we hear from this building (and others) is very fine, but I wonder what sound they would achieve with the choir in the stalls? For commercial rec. most choirs, nay all (?), would leave their stalls formation, surely. In many BBC services broadcasts they do too - I did one at Windsor in front of the screen in their moveable 'Ikea' stalls! At the Oratory we leave the organ gallery and stand in front of St Peter's statue facing across the church. That's not always possible, as here, I suspect.

I love the Tippett service and can practically sing it from memory - it was great to hear it here so vigorous and committed. I have sung in St Paul's in John Scott's time. And yes, Gabriel, I am always surprised at the reactions it receives. I love Tippett's music and this was the first Tippett I heard on the Guest / St Jonh's Cambridge LP from the late 60's. (I hasten to add I encountered this LP in the lates '80's!) So I was rather surprised when I heard the Midsummer Marriage, which I adore and have sung at the ROH. Much of what Tippett does is polemic, and perhaps never more so than in these familiar texts, or so it seems! He is so often stirring it up, and for me that is very successful. The presentation of the text in musical and purely vocal terms is top notch and memorable!

[Keraulophone]

As for the Tippett, I find it sad that, after nearly 50 years it still provokes such adverse reactions from some listeners. For me it is one of the few masterpieces written for the Anglican church since the war - thrillingly exuberant and exhilarating in the Magnificat, and a still fresh and imaginative response to these most familiar of texts from a very great composer.

Spot on.

But why do those gents have to be quite so aggressive? (Inappropriate for this or any other Magnificat, IMO.)

[Miles Coverdale]

I just wish the BBC would get the Hyperion engineers to place the mics. They know the buildings, and make CDs worth listening to again and again, yet the Beeb produce live broadcasts that sound as if they were sung in outer space.

Don't forget that the choir may well not be standing in the stalls when they make a recording. I've not made a recording yet where the choir has been in its stalls, and that must have an effect on the recorded sound.

[Chris Watson]

Good point about the positioning - I've never done a session in St Paul's before. But I have just checked the sound of the Priory Stanford Bb/C disc we recorded when I was in Durham 20 years ago against last week's broadcast. For the Stanford we stood in our normal positions and Neil Collier placed one of those all-in-one soundfield mics under the tower, and it wins hands down in terms of recorded sound. And all but one of the discs we made at the Drome in my 7 years there (1997-2004) were recorded in the stalls, and I've never heard a broadcast from there that compares to the CDs. There may well be good technical reasons for this, of course, but it is a pity.

[Simon Biazeck]

You seem to be answering MC, (I made the point above earlier in relation to your post) but I will reply anyway only to say that I am on the latest Drome CD and we stood on the sanctuary steps which sounds equally good to my ears. WC is the best ecclesiastical venue in London at least for quiet, apart from the strange clicking from the cooling candles!

[Chris Watson]

Hi Simon. I just pressed reply at the bottom! The Drome is amazingly quiet, considering where it is. I remember liking singing on the Sanctuary (it was for the Panufnik Mass recording, with an orchestra) but I think I prefer the Apse!

[Finzi4ever]

I often judge a choir by the very first note or chord I hear. Today didn't start well! The cantor also wobbled his first note. Things got a lot better though and I am pleased that this choir seem to be finding form after a few seasons of some distinctly ropey performances both on radio 3 CE and at other times I have heard them in the flesh. I have a soft spot for St P's because it has the best organ on the planet (IMO), because of the building and because I believed it to be the best choir of its type at a time in the past. Maybe it will be again soon - today was a good step in the right direction!
I agree with VCC re refinement. To my ears the boys are just pushing it a bit to keep up with the men resulting in a coarser sound and I would prefer to hear the men blending with the boys rather than the other way round.
Excellent psalm singing and the Tippett.......well marmite music really, isnt it! Well done solo treble though, amazing job! Thought the organ playing a bit too safe here but it was too closely mic'd - we were both wrong re solo reeds CB! Probably BBC engineers yapping about the organ being too loud, as usual, rather than putting the mics in a sensible place. Its not impossible in that building as we have heard before.
Loved the Franck! Well done St Paul's, Andrew Carwood and Simon Johnson

So which reeds were they in the Tippett and Franck???

[secret squirrel]

Well, hello all once again; I have been away for a very long time and as usual St. Paul's brings me back (must be in my blood...!).

Actually, I have to say that I thought the trebles were ever so fractionally sharp throughout all the Latin works and were only at their truest 'St. Paul's' sound in the second set of responses and the canticles. And the psalms were all one volume with no feminine endings - to my ear.

I don't know why this is - were they trying too hard; too few in number (were there 30+ yesterday?) to match the men's timbre (they weren't singing loudly and I like their sound - sorry!) or just more confident in what they knew 'day in, day out'?

I say that not because any of the service was musically offensive (see the end) but the boys sound, while considerably better than it has been for a while, came across as just a little less 'St. Paul's' / Anglican and as if there were fewer in number giving 101% rather than numbers giving 80% towards a bigger sound...

It is a difficult one this, but to me the choir simply sounded less Anglican of yore and distinctly more 'earnest'...

On which point I do find myself asking this: why a Latin Introit; Latin Hymn and Latin Anthem? While I am the first to acknowledge I am Prayer book to the core, I felt that the BBC would have been better off letting St. Paul's have (again, fair enough) the Feast of the Conversion and hearing them revel in 'their own' music (Howells St. Paul's and a large Vicwardian anthem, say) rather than sing (very well, I hasten to add) music better suited for screened quires and smaller collegiate chapels.

Of course today's CoE has a place for Latin / Roman and especially Reformation music, but I feel the building that is St. Paul's and its superb choir would have been better represented with other music , more of which could have been in English and perhaps more representative of the CoE at large!

Anyhow - I am (probably) very out-of-date / touch and if I have offended anyone, my sincerest apologies - I really thought the singing was very good, but it (the service and half of the music) wasn't to my liking, that's all.

Last word: hats off to the soloist in the Nunc; job well done!

Now I will away for another year!

SS

[Magnificat]

As for the Tippett, I find it sad that, after nearly 50 years it still provokes such adverse reactions from some listeners. For me it is one of the few masterpieces written for the Anglican church since the war - thrillingly exuberant and exhilarating in the Magnificat, and a still fresh and imaginative response to these most familiar of texts from a very great composer.

Gabriel,

I don't disagree with you about the Tippett but with your composer hat on how do you view writing a setting of The Magnificat - 'Mary's Song'

I remember a chap at evensong in St Albans saying to me after a quite superb rendering that he felt it was just not appropriate in view of the very gentle text that it set. You could say this about a lot of settings but it made me think about appropriateness with regard to the setting of any text.

Similarly the Nunc Dimittis which is again a really quite gentle piece of prose.

I must admit that I always feel the service is, as I said above, more prayerful when I hear these canticles set by the likes of Gibbons, Byrd etc.

VCC