Byrd, Andrew Carwood & the Cardinall's Musick

[vinteuil]

I have yet to be persuaded that 'authentic' pronunciation is anything more than a red herring that has nothing whatsoever to do with making music...

When one thinks of the care taken by instrumentalists and instrument-makers to produce a particular "sound" that is believed best to represent the intentions of the composer - surely we should expect the same of singers? We would now find it odd to use a piano to accompany Monteverdi - I would find it odd if we didn't now strive to find the particular voice characteristics - which would include pronunciation - that a composer would have had in mind.

[Finzi4ever]

I'm not surprised! It was good Latin.

I had it saved on video for an end-of-term treat. It used to be available on YouTube, but Channel 4 have barred it now. It is available on DVD I think.

To return to somewhere near the original subject of this thread - the Cardinall's Music was one of the ensembles on the EMS yesterday, but at the time when the recordings they used were made, Andrew Carwood either hadn't yet been converted to historically-informed pronunciation, or had given it up!

All episodes still available on Ch 4 but not 4OD:

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/chelmsford-123/4od#2917639

Enjoy!

[Chris Watson]

You certainly make a valid point Vinteuil, but whereas we know for certain what the instruments of the day sounded like, as they still exist today, we have absolutely no chance of knowing what a 15th century voice sounded like. And if latin pronunciation really was that different in different parts, any well known piece will have been sing in different ways at the same point in time in different cities. But my main objection to the whole thing is that it is too often used as an alternative to music making and understanding of the meaning of the text, and it's rarely done convincingly (to my ears) or consistently. And I do have a fair amount of experience of this. If there was enough rehearsal time to learn the music And spend time talking through the text in order to turn it from a collection of phonetic syllables into a believable language then I would be more inclined to accept it, but I am still not convinced that it would enhance the music.

[Finzi4ever]

Hear, hear, Chris!

[jean]

All episodes still available on Ch 4 but not 4OD:

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/chelmsford-123/4od#2917639

Enjoy!

Thank you!

Is everything channel 4 ever did available online, or is it just that Chelmsford 123's time has come?

[jean]

I have to say (as an original member of Ex Cathedra) Jeff had not been seduced by exotic Latins in the 1970s. Had anyone?

Andrew Parrott?

Nobody answered my question, so I tried to find out, as I didn't think I'd made that up.

It wasn't as early at that, but Parrott did record Taverner with 'a real attempt to produce contemporary consonantal and vocal sounds' in 1986, according to this review, which quotes 'pleni sunt seli', 'et in yoo-num', 'jioo-dicare' and 'dayco taybay'.

(I think I've got the LP somewhere.)

http://www.jstor.org/pss/3127466

[vinteuil]

I much enjoyed the attempt at 'authentick pronunciation' in the 1989 recording by Red Byrd/Rose Consort of Gibbons's This is the Record of Jahn

[Miles Coverdale]

It wasn't as early at that, but Parrott did record Taverner with 'a real attempt to produce contemporary consonantal and vocal sounds' in 1986, according to this review, which quotes 'pleni sunt seli', 'et in yoo-num', 'jioo-dicare' and 'dayco taybay'.

(I think I've got the LP somewhere.)

http://www.jstor.org/pss/3127466

What a great recording that is. It was one of the first to place the polyphony in the context of a 'litgurgical reconstruction' (before the idea became fashionable). Just when you're thinking that you might have had enough plainsong, in comes the Gloria. And it's at a sensible pitch.

Parrott's two CDs of Tallis (still available at under £10 for the two) are still the ones to beat in that repertoire, in my opinion.

[mopsus]

For recent opinion on the Appendix Probi see the work reviewed here, which contains a chapter on the subject by someone who once taught me. It isn't just a simple pronunciation guide for people whose Latin was turning into Romance vernacular.

To return to singing, I find that if I'm asked to pronounce Latin in an unusual way I just treat it as singing in an accent, and I soon get used to it.

[ardcarp]

I much enjoyed the attempt at 'authentick pronunciation' in the 1989 recording by Red Byrd/Rose Consort of Gibbons's This is the Record of Jahn

Yes! I still play my old audio cassette version of Elizabethan Christmas Anthems; it includes Gibbons' See See the Word is Incarnate and Byrd's Luulaby sung by the incomparable Caroline Trevor. I fear the 'research' amounts to little more than a hunch that Tudors sounded a bit West Country. But if you want a romp with Red Byrd, camping up some trad repertory in Mummerset, this is brilliant. It never fails to cheer me up (even if I shed a tear in the Lullaby).