Byrd, Andrew Carwood & the Cardinall's Musick

[jean]

Can jean or MC explain a little more about how the 'Reformed Classical' proninciation came about? Can one really imagine Caesar saying Waynee weedy weeky? Pythonesque IMO. And was there an element of anti-Roman Catholicism about it?

I don't quite know why people suddenly decided they'd like to know more precisely how the Romans themselves pronounced their language, but they did. If you get hold of a copy of Lewis & Short's Latin dictionary (and I expect the much newer Cambridge Latin Dictionary does the same) you'll find that the first entry under each letter gives a history of the development of the character and of its pronunciation, often with reference to clearly related Greek words. The example that always sticks in my mind is the parallel between Latin vinumand Greek oinos (wine), which does make it pretty well unavoidable that Caesar really did say Waynee weedy weeky.

I found this the other day:

http://phonetic-blog.blogspot.com/2009/09/benedicite-omnia-opera.html

and it seem I am wrong to see the 'Westminster pronunciation' as an uninterrupted development from English medieval pronunciation of Latin - if Wells is right, the earlier, less well-founded reforms of Erasmus intervened.

[jean]

I have to say (as an original member of Ex Cathedra) Jeff had not been seduced by exotic Latins in the 1970s. Had anyone?

Andrew Parrott?

[Miles Coverdale]

Can jean or MC explain a little more about how the 'Reformed Classical' proninciation came about? Can one really imagine Caesar saying Waynee weedy weeky? Pythonesque IMO.

I agree it sounds odd. I once asked a Classicist how we know that Romans said 'arway' rather than 'arvay' and he said that there are manuscripts which describe how upper-class Romans spoke. Perhaps those of lower social status spoke differently, but I don't know.

In a publication of 1528, Erasmus describes how a Frenchman, speaking Latin, gave a speech of welcome to Emperor Maximilian I. He was assumed to be speaking French as he spoke Latin with such a strong French accent. Among those replying to the speech were a Dane and a Zeelander, whose Latin was pronounced so much like their native languages that 'you would have sworn that neither was speaking Latin'. I imagine the situation was much the same in England.

Italinate pronunciation of Latin in this country gained some ground in the middle of the 19th century through the Oxford Movement. Copeman associates the beginning of pronunciation reform with pressure from Pope Pius X in 1903. However, writing in 1934, Brittain says that 'the Italianate pronunciation does not appear to have made much headway in Anglican Cathedrals or college chapels up to the present.'

As I said before, I would recommend Alison Wray's essay 'The sound of Latin in England before and after the Reformation' (I misquoted the title in a previous post).

[jean]

I once asked a Classicist how we know that Romans said 'arway' rather than 'arvay' and he said that there are manuscripts which describe how upper-class Romans spoke...

I've never heard of any! But see my post above on the pronunciation of 'v' specifically.

As I said before, I would recommend Alison Wray's essay 'The sound of Latin in England before and after the Reformation'

I'd be interested in reading that - have you a reference for it?

[Miles Coverdale]

I can't give you chapter and verse - I'll try and remember to ask him next time I see him.

The Wray essay can be found on Google books by searching for 'Alison Wray the sound of Latin'. That will show you the book it comes from.

[jean]

The example that always sticks in my mind is the parallel between Latin vinum and Greek oinos (wine), which does make it pretty well unavoidable that Caesar really did say Waynee weedy weeky.

I should have added that for the Romans, V and u were just majuscule and minuscule versions of the same character, and it's hard to imagine that it would have had such very different pronunciations as a consonant and as a vowel.

If your friend means information we might get from grammarians like Varro, I think such evidence would be very hard to interpret and is not the basis for the most recent research.

[decantor]

I should have added that for the Romans, V and u were just majuscule and minuscule versions of the same character, and it's hard to imagine that it would have had such very different pronunciations as a consonant and as a vowel.

Quite so. I used to convince my own pupils of this by pointing out that navis (boat) resulted in navita (boatman, sailor), more usually spelt (and pronounced) as nauta. Such a sequence is highly unlikely if the 'v' in navis was ever a voiced labiodental fricative, as it is in now in English.

It can rapidly get more complicated. Papyri from Oxyrhynchus sometimes show vult (wants) mis-spelt as bolt: that suggests that, at least in the eastern, Hellenized Med region, consonantal 'v' and 'b' were confusible - a confusion perpetuated to some extent in modern Spanish; and that even vocallic 'u' had its problems!

The Modern Received Pronunciation of Latin stemmed largely, I believe, from the work of Prof. Sidney Allen in the early- or mid-sixties. He published a book (Vox Latina) on the subject, accompanied by an LP, which had a considerable impact on British schools over the succeeding two decades.

[mangerton]

This is all very interesting. I started to learn Latin in Hawick in 1962. My first teacher had been educated in Edinburgh, and said "veni". Two years after that, I went to a different school in Edinburgh where again "veni" was said. My sister went to a girls' school in Edinburgh at the same time. She was taught to say "weni". Some 40 years before that, 1066 and All That was published. It of course referred to the ancient Britons as "weeny, weedy and weaky". One of the authors (Sellar) had taught at the Edinburgh school I attended.

I'm not sure if any of this proves anything. Probably not!

[french frank]

I've never heard of any! But see my post above on the pronunciation of 'v' specifically.


I'd be interested in reading that - have you a reference for it?

One such was the Appendix Probi which has lists of words which, without looking up to remind myself, said 'like this, not this', in other words giving both the 'correct' pronunciation and the way people are assumed to have pronounced the words. Precious evidence for the way that the Romance languages developed. Not sure that it rules on the pronunciation of 'v', though.

[jean]

The Modern Received Pronunciation of Latin stemmed largely, I believe, from the work of Prof. Sidney Allen in the early- or mid-sixties.

He can't have done the original research, though, because the Reformed Pronunciation was well established by the 1950s when I was at school - though Westminster at any rate hung on to their old pronunciation longer than others, and famously sang Vivat Regina! with the is pronounced eye in Parry's I was Glad at the Coronation in 1953.

1066 and All That...of course referred to the ancient Britons as "weeny, weedy and weaky". One of the authors (Sellar) had taught at the Edinburgh school I attended.

I'm not sure if any of this proves anything. Probably not!

Actually, what they say is that the Ancient Britons, who still used the Old Pronunciation, thought Caesar was calling them weeny, weedy and weaky, became discouraged, and gave up.

It's nice joke, because it acknowledges that the Reformed pronunciation was what the Romans would actually have been speaking, even if Sellar hadn't got round to using it himself in his teaching - but the Ancient Britons, because their education was so hopelessly out of date, wouldn't have recognised it as Latin at all. And what it does prove is that pronunciation reform was a live issue by 1930.

It reminds me a bit of the TV sitcom Chelmsford 123, unlamented apart from its very funny first episode in which the Romans all spoke Latin, at the end of which an Ancient Briton, required to read a welcoming message for them in Latin, pronounces it as if it were English - 'Nos multissime...' he says, to rhyme with rhyme.

[mangerton]

jean, yes, that is of course right. Thanks for the correction.

[jean]

I've edited my post a bit more now, mangerton!

[vinteuil]

wikipedia offers some interesting avenues for further exploration -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_regional_pronunciation

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_spelling_and_pronunciation

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_English_pronunciation_of_Latin

[Finzi4ever]

Quite so. I used to convince my own pupils of this by pointing out that navis (boat) resulted in navita (boatman, sailor), more usually spelt (and pronounced) as nauta. Such a sequence is highly unlikely if the 'v' in navis was ever a voiced labiodental fricative, as it is in now in English.

It can rapidly get more complicated. Papyri from Oxyrhynchus sometimes show vult (wants) mis-spelt as bolt: that suggests that, at least in the eastern, Hellenized Med region, consonantal 'v' and 'b' were confusible - a confusion perpetuated to some extent in modern Spanish; and that even vocallic 'u' had its problems!

The Modern Received Pronunciation of Latin stemmed largely, I believe, from the work of Prof. Sidney Allen in the early- or mid-sixties. He published a book (Vox Latina) on the subject, accompanied by an LP, which had a considerable impact on British schools over the succeeding two decades.

...not just in Spanish of course but modern Greek and Cyrillic where beta-looking letters are pronounced as consonantal v.

Jean. I do rather lament the lack of appreciation for Chelmsford 123 - one of the early Hat Trick (Mulville/McGrath) productions - a pun fest like few others, with many a clever twist on and perversion of many Romano-British features which revealed some real historical understanding of that world. The Latin (which appeared again towards the end of the second series) was written or at least checked by the still incumbent Head of Classics at a famous public school, well-known for producing satirists...

[jean]

...The Latin (which appeared again towards the end of the second series) was written or at least checked by the still incumbent Head of Classics at a famous public school, well-known for producing satirists...

I'm not surprised! It was good Latin.

I had it saved on video for an end-of-term treat. It used to be available on YouTube, but Channel 4 have barred it now. It is available on DVD I think.

To return to somewhere near the original subject of this thread - the Cardinall's Music was one of the ensembles on the EMS yesterday, but at the time when the recordings they used were made, Andrew Carwood either hadn't yet been converted to historically-informed pronunciation, or had given it up!