Nine Lessons and Carols 24th Dec 2011 [R4 4 live ] 25th Dec [R3 / 2 p.m. ]

[pole_2_pole]

... pressure on Oxbridge to admit less advantaged students from State schools with lower grades than those from private schools.

That's a load of rubbish.

[jean]

The trick is to identify those students who have not had the advantage of 'hothousing' in a private school, but who will nevertheless be quite capable of coping with and benefiting from the ferocious pace of Oxbridge.

[orbis factor]

That's a load of rubbish.

Quite.

[Nick Armstrong]

a University should be about not just the utilitarian business of examination grades.

Precisely: I happen to have attended the East Anglian bit of "Oxbridge" (as have a sister and various offspring of relatives and friends in the intervening decades) and I would say that no more than half of the experience was about that "utilitarian" business. The point is to have students who can cope academically with what's expected of them, and yet have brain cells and time left over for everything else - the sport, the music, the drama or whatever... and the training for life of (to take one example I recall) sitting next to a Nobel prize-winning astrophysicist at dinner and managing to conduct an enlightening conversation (or simply not make an absolute tw@t of oneself) despite the alcohol... (namely the ale which a syndicate of three of us brewed in our rooms from the raw materials thanks to one of the others being the son of a brewing family... 7p a pint, I seem to recall )

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

The trick is to identify those students who have not had the advantage of 'hothousing' in a private school, but who will nevertheless be quite capable of coping with and benefiting from the ferocious pace of Oxbridge.

Hothousing has been an increasing characteristic of state education since the narrowness of Kenneth Baker's "National Curriculum".

[paradisum]

I stand corrected.

[Gabriel Jackson]

Well, I must say that the Tansy Davies was one of the most turgid, dreary and utterly un-carol-like offerings I have heard for a long time! And far too long, as others have pointed out (royalty payments for broadcast payments are based on duration, you know). To think she was actually commissioned and paid for that stuff - it was so hideous, for a minute I thought it was Michael Finnissy! lol

If you think the longer-than-is-perhaps-customary duaration of Tansy's piece will generate significantly increased royalies, dream on!

And you may have laughed out loud at your fatuous comment about Michael Finnissy but I doubt manyother people did.

[Magnificat]

There is, I understand, currently tremendous competition between college choirs to attract the best singers from a dwindling field of candidates the reasons for which certainly include the tough academic standards required these days and which will also, most certainly, in the future include the need for colleges to take into account the backgrounds of undergraduates: social class, school attended, parental income and other factors to comply with Michael Gove's requirements to see more bright but less advantaged State school pupils offered places.

The point I was trying to make was that this situation may well make the job less attractive to potential applicants in due course. It is certainly not a problem that Stephen Cleobury's predecessors had to face but I hope that whoever eventually succeeds him will have the skill and determination to overcome it so that the great boys and men choral tradition at King's and can continue to the highest standards. One of the finest ecclesiastical buildings in the world deserves no less.

VCC.

[jean]

Hothousing has been an increasing characteristic of state education since the narrowness of Kenneth Baker's "National Curriculum".

I am not sure what you mean by 'hothousing', but it isn't what I mean, since no state school has the resources that the private sector can lavish on preparing likely Oxbridge candidates.

I see no reason, either, why there should be less musical or specifically singing ability among State school pupils - but it's true that they may never have been encouraged to find out.

[VodkaDilc]

There is, I understand, currently tremendous competition between college choirs to attract the best singers from a dwindling field of candidates the reasons for which certainly include the tough academic standards required these days and which will also, most certainly, in the future include the need for colleges to take into account the backgrounds of undergraduates: social class, school attended, parental income and other factors to comply with Michael Gove's requirements to see more bright but less advantaged State school pupils offered places.

VCC.

Can we also look forward to "more bright but less advantaged State school (ex)pupils" being offered places in the cabinet?

[ardcarp]

Time was when potential choral scholars could gain access to Oxbridge with lower grades. Whether you think it right or not, it hardly happens now, which means that many with excellent voices and musicianship (whichever sort of school they come from) are just not making it now. But look on the bright side. A young lad known to me did brilliantly in the voice trials but didn't make it despite As and Bs. He went to university in London instead, got a paid job in a London church and is now at the start of a fantastic career as a soloist...already getting four-figure gigs around Europe. So it's Oxbridge's loss and his gain.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I am not sure what you mean by 'hothousing', but it isn't what I mean, since no state school has the resources that the private sector can lavish on preparing likely Oxbridge candidates.

Briefly, in my opinion, hothousing in education is "filling the pot" rather than "lighting the flame".

[DracoM]

Maybe the most that could be said of the KCC service was that it was pretty utterly bland, not terribly well- nor terribly badly-sung for a variety of reasons, that the leadership is so bleached out, chilly and lacking engagement, that the KCC brand now has many and far better rivals that the place is no longer all that remarkable - more musical museum that has embalmed rather than liberated a musical tradition. Yet KCC is still spoken of in hushed terms by R4 CA, and those who know relatively little about singing but like to annually ooh and aaah over those lovely little choristers and the Krizmerz tat KCC have unhappily found themselves caught up in since the BBC annually so relentlessly promote them, nay apotheosise them as part of the 'total Christmas package'. Just another brand.

The Tansy Davies I found a bit lumpen, Chilcott was OK - decent professional writing of the genre, and Rutter....well, Rutter is Rutter.

I truly feel sorry for that whole choral set up. Trapped by history and their own so carefully honed preservation of their tradition. They need new direction, a new role, need dropping by the BBC for 5 years - yes, yes, I know they won't do that since the package is so lucrative worldwide - to give us a chance to hear some other foundation, other descants, other repertoire. They are in danger of becoming the Andre Rieu of sacred music.

[Magnificat]

Draco,

As regards the Nine Lessons and Carols service. It is a format that has stood the test of time and proved very popular with the public even if the afficianados of the choral world might have wished for something different from time to time.

I am not one for being hide bound by tradition but I would hate to see this particular one disappear from my Christmas.

KCC is essentially only the chancel of a cathedral and the building is ideally suited to the Nine Lessons and Carols format as well as being spectacular television.

I have been to other Lessons and Carols services in cathedrals with different formats e.g themed services that focus on different aspects of the Nativity in different years and include pieces such as The Magnificat, God So Loved The World, The Poulenc Christmas Motets etc. as well as processions around the buildings concerned.

To me they just don't work ( and, I doubt would work that well on TV). Those at the west end can't hear the choir at the east end and vice versa. The whole thing would be better with the choir in the stalls and the congregation in the Nave, similar to King's arrangement, even if they have to have three or four services rather than the usual two to accomodate the numbers who want to come and I appreciate that this is unlikely to be possible.

The music is often not what the once a year Christians, who are by far the majority these days, are familiar with or want. They want 'proper' Christmas carols and arrangements by the choir with familiar congregational carols interspersed just as King's do it apart from their annual special commissions which is something that Stephen Cleobury initiated and has been quite successful for the most part with many new items now well established in cathedral repertoire generally but whether the masses really think something like Illuminare Jerusalem is a proper Christmas carol I am not so sure.

Although we on this message board and the choristers may like all the sort of stuff I have mentioned it may appear a bit self indulgent to the paying public and I know has put people off coming the next year in some places. At St Albans this year, for example, we had Wishart, Bruckner and Sweelink - I liked it but whether the pieces were appreciated by the majority of the congregation I wouldn't like to say - again probably not regarded as 'proper' carols.

As for the King's sound. It is entirely governed by the building's acoustic. I heard Philip Ledger talking on the radio one year and saying that the trouble with the chapel is that it takes every mistake and magnifies it ten times which is why they have to sing the way they do. So if John Scott was in charge, for example, the choir may well not have a sound that is much different to that they have had under the previous DoMs.

The way to avoid staleness is for DoMs not to stay too long in one place but it is very difficult as people get settled and it is not always possible to move on even if you would like to. It's the same for any profession although it is probably easier for people in the employment of the church to stay in post if they are past their best than it would be elsewhere. As I said above the weight of renown that SC has to bear on his shoulders is quite a burden and on the whole I think he has carried it as well as anyone could.

On another note altogether the numbers coming through the doors at St Albans this year have been phenomenal. Has this been mirrored elsewhere. I hope so because it is good for the clergy and the choristers to see that people do still come to church in great numbers even if only at the big festivals.

VCC

[decantor]

Draco, I could so easily fall in step with your post #58. But to do so would be to disregard an important factor. When I was directing a school chapel choir, I used to hate the Carol Service: colleagues and parents would be pressing for Rutter, and the HM would drop hints about 'nothing too modern'; even the kids wanted the 'usual' carols. And why? Because, whereas Sunday chapel would attract a dozen or two parents, suddenly almost all parents would be in attendance, and as a body the school community had a clear notion of what the Carol Service should be. They were not looking for a musical experience, but a glorious kick-start for Christmas.

On Christmas Eve, KCC perform the same service for the nation, and maybe for a fair slice of the world. The choir probably view the business as a millstone, just as we do, but to fail to deliver would be regarded as an abject betrayal, a dereliction of duty. I believe that the 9L&C is technically a gift from the college to the City of Cambridge, but, through the Beeb, it has become Britain's gift to the world. It is much more than a 'special' CE broadcast, and is enjoyed by those who perhaps think that the 'fair choristers' are waifs pulled from the streets at the last moment. There is no scope for asking another choir to undertake the burden, and this is not a service aimed at the choral cognoscenti.

Thus I believe that Cleobury introduced the commissioned work as a way of ensuring that some innovation was possible. I did not dislike the Tansy Davies carol as much as others, and was well satisfied to have both the Weir and Part offerings in addition. And I see little reason to doubt the competence of the choir; if standards have risen such that KCC is no longer exceptional (were they ever?), they are still a choral force to be reckoned with - my knowledgeable contacts visit mid-week mid-term, and they usually report rapture rather than disappointment. Charity demands compassion for King's on 24th Dec.