From Chelmsford to Worcester

[Gabriel Jackson]

A misreading of the Magnificat position.

Really? How?

[Alison]

The word 'necessarily' rather changes things.

[Gabriel Jackson]

The word 'necessarily' rather changes things.

Insomuch as it makes the whole statement pointless, yes

[pole_2_pole]

Insomuch as it makes the whole statement pointless, yes

Agreed...

[DracoM]

< I am not convinced that people who are singers will always make good choir trainers especially with choirs of boys and men >

Note VCC's word - 'ALWAYS' ? A pretty unexceptionable statement, I would have thought. Some singers do, some do not make good trainers of choirs.

[pole_2_pole]

Regardless of syntax or grammar I still think the gist of it is unfair.

[french frank]

As a general point, there is a distinction to be made between saying someone made a mess of a performance - perfectly allowable, if controversial - and querying, however obliquely, someone's professional competence to do his or her job well. There is possibly a place for such a discussion, but I don't think that it's here.

[Gabriel Jackson]

Note VCC's word - 'ALWAYS' ? A pretty unexceptionable statement, I would have thought. Some singers do, some do not make good trainers of choirs.

Unexceptionable in isolation, but also pointless. One might as well say " I am not convinced that vetinary surgeons will always make good choir trainers especially with choirs of boys and men". Unless the broader point is to decry the appointments of singers to such posts. (Apparently it doesn't matter wher girls or adults are concerned).

[DracoM]

Except, GJ, that VCC very specifically did NOT make that point. You write just a bit as if you were disappointed that he didn't.

[Gabriel Jackson]

His post is churlish and questioning of Peter Nardone's fitness for the job.

[Magnificat]

Gabriel,

Actually I thought I had said ( and certainly meant to say) that I thought he could do the job even if his choir at Chelmsford hadn't impressed.

As for singers being good choir trainers. Some may be and some may not be. Some may be naturals and some may struggle especially with boys who need good motivators as well as good technicians behind them. It's like Michael Gove saying that to be a good teacher you must have a first or upper second degree which is absolute piffle as many very academic people will be absolutely hopeless as teachers because they won't be able to communicate with pupils on their level.

Not all good organists are good choirtrainers certainly I'd agree on that.

I have used the analogy before of footballers. Look at Sir Bobby Charlton an absolutely brilliant player but an absolutely hopeless manager and there have been many others like him.

VCC

[Mr Stoat]

A few points occur to me:

1) I have often wondered why Chelmsford seem to have dropped off the CE schedule - although they are not alone there. I may be wrong, but when did we last hear for example (in no particular order and there are sure to be others) Leicester, Carlisle, Warwick, bangor, Brecon, St Asaph.... This would go off topic if anyone cares to comment, so I suggest a new topic be started if so.....................

2) I was a regular visitor at Chelmsford in Graham Elliot's time and thought they were very good. I wouldn't say they were bad in John Jordan's time either!

3) I know nothing about Chelmsford in Peter Nardone's time, but one cannot judge a person's suitability for / ability to do a job on the basis of what happened at one place. On my own admission, I have been fairly succesful in my current church post (nearly 19 years) but I was unable to do anything right in my previous one!!

4) Someone mentioned the DOM at Norwich. If you mean David Lowe, he is no longer there - David Dunnett is Acting DOM

[DracoM]

I have used the analogy before of footballers. Look at Sir Bobby Charlton an absolutely brilliant player but an absolutely hopeless manager and there have been many others like him.

Think Bryan Robson even more so - ex Man U, England Capt, everything he touched managerially turned to dross.

[anoncoward]

I am amazed at some of the simplistic and ill-informed comments here. Anyone who knows anything about choirs knows that the 'quality' of its output can be affected by any number of factors, sometimes over which the incumbent DOM has no immediate or short-term control. This can range from issues that he/she inherits to support from colleagues, financial restraints, infrastructure... etc. Surely the 'success' of a DOM and his/her choir should be judged with much deeper understanding than simply by whether they broadcast or not, even on this esteemed Radio 3 message-board. Should their success even be judged on the strength of hearing one service on what might have been a day when half the boys were on a school trip, or key members of the back row are stuck in traffic on the A12!? Come on, lets be adult and realistic about this.
It is true that Dr Elliot brought the Chelmsford Choir up to a high standard in the late 80s/early 90s, but things change within and outside a cathedral which can sometimes make maintaining these standards for more than a few years at a time very difficult. It is important to point out that for whatever reason, when Peter Nardone took over in 1999 he was certainly not inheriting a 'tight ship'. The cathedral choir had been without a permanent DOM for a whole year and was almost 'on its knees'. The choristers had to be virtually re-established. It is not difficult to imagine the problems which may have occurred due to the instability associated with this very long transition period. One should also bear in mind, the huge cultural changes in society (even since 1990) which inevitably have a huge effect on cathedrals and churches (without 'choir schools') having to persuade busy working parents to loan them their children for 20 hours a week. I would advise anyone doubting Chelmsford Cathedral Choir to simply come and listen to a service here. If you are hoping or expecting to hear a choir that sounds like King's, Westminster, or Winchester etc, then I suggest you go and hear one of those choirs (in one of those buildings!) instead. However come to hear PN's choir at Chelmsford if you wish to hear a dedicated team of musicians, young and older, professional and non professional, sing a cathedral service with extraordinary care, sensitivity, dignity and sincerity. If this isn't the proof of 'success' that really matters, I don't know what is.

Yours,

an informed supporter of cathedral choirs

[anoncoward]

He trained as a professional singer.

should continue "and organist"