Advent Carol Service New College Oxford

[cheryltweedy]

CT

I'm slightly confused: on the Nine Lessons thread you said you preferred the English sound of King's!!

NCO, of course, use experienced lay clerks as well as their choral scholars.

VCC

VCC- I prefer the 'english sound' for KCC in that particular space. It is what works best. NCO offer something completely different but I think they excel at their sound better than King's do at theirs.

CT

[cheryltweedy]

VCC- I prefer the 'english sound' for KCC in that particular space. It is what works best. NCO offer something completely different but I think they excel at their sound better than King's do at theirs.

CT

That said I have just listened to Parry's "My soul there is a country" and heard - what you have pointed out repeatedly VCC - which is the strain heard on the higher notes by the NCO trebles. I wonder how the training there affects their adult voices? Interestingly the boys at SJC and KCC and Christchurch regularly turn out to be rather good men as I have encountered many on the singing circuit but almost none (much to my own chargrin!) from NCO. thoughts?

[ardcarp]

Several of today's well-known soloists were in fact choral scholars at NCO. I'll leave you to do the research!

[Magnificat]

Ardcarp,

Yes, but were they also choristers at New College under EH which is the point being made by CT?

I know, for example, that the fine high tenor Rogers Covey - Crump was at New College as a boy but that was years ago when the boys' sound was much different to what it has been for the last 40 years. James Bowman ( I think he was a New College choral scholar ) was at Ely as a boy

I don't know how much a chorister's training as a boy will affect any adult voice he may have but I can't see that boys' straining to get the top notes does them any good at all as far as their vocal chords are concerned, there may well be permanent damage. Perhaps this is why you often hear boys trained in the NC way being pulled out of the top notes in various ways rather than straining to reach them.

VCC

[cheryltweedy]

VCC- my point precisely. I enjoy immensely the sound that NCO boys make finding it musical, characterful and mature (see any number of their recent CD's) but that is tangential to my point which is that on hearing the upper ranges of the boys considerable strain is heard.

Furthermore, as VCC points out (I have just listened to a number of their most recent broadcasts) you can hear boys 'drop' out of the sound as it gets higher; not normal practice in most choirs. The lower stuff is often full of colour, but at times the higher notes sounded 'screeched.' The lack of echo in that space would perhaps not draw too much attention to this. There are other boys at other choirs who sing in a equally 'colourful' way but without the tension and vocal problems inherent in some EH boys.'

I just thought it would be interesting to discuss this because NCO have their very vocal cheerleaders (Draco/andcarp) on this board but their sound is not often subjected to the critical analysis that perhaps Westminster cath, abbey, KCC and SJC are.
Again, let me reiterate from a listeners point of view I love the sound, but from a singers point of view some of the sounds do cause some concern.

[ardcarp]

Sorry, my fault, I meant to say 'choristers' not choral scholars...and shall we start with James Gilchrist?

I have to agree, by the way, that effortless high notes are easier with pure head voices.

[Wolsey]

Sorry, my fault, I meant to say 'choristers' not choral scholars...and shall we start with James Gilchrist?

And Ian Partridge?

[Wolsey]

Charles Pott and Jerome Finnis? Oh, and that choir director par excellence, Richard Seal.

[Magnificat]

[QUOTE=cheryltweedy;20595] w There are other boys at other choirs who sing in a equally 'colourful' way but without the tension and vocal problems inherent in some EH boys.'


CT,

An observation - not particularly scientific but interesting, I think, regarding boys going on to sing as men.

The boys at St Albans Abbey where I have worshipped regularly for many years certainly sing with a very full sound and effortlessly float the high notes.

During the last twelve years of Andrew Lucas's tenure at the Abbey I know that they have produced four boys who have gone on to have very good adult voices. Three extremely good tenors and one countertenor ( two of whom have been choral scholars at SJC and one who is now). One boy who is currently singing bass in the cathedral choir and has similar ambitions, another bass I remember as head chorister as a treble who has deputised occasionally and must be pretty good to fulfil Andrew's high standards for his men; and last year's head chorister who is between voices but like the tenors above was very technically proficient as a boy ( heard on their last broadcast CE in October 2009 singing the solo in Stanford in G ) and had a similar sounding treble voice to them and who, I would be prepared to hazard a guess, will be just as good an adult singer either tenor or bass. There may be others that I don't know about.

That is seven boys at least out of approx 50 ( say an average of four leaving each year ) who would have left the choir after completing their time during that period. About 15%,say, that are or are likely to be able to sing as men in the back row of any top class cathedral choir.

I think it would be fair say that this is a pretty good success ratio for any choirmaster and that the training and style of singing at St Albans seems to be successful in this respect.

VCC

[ardcarp]

Our tradition of boy trebles is a great resource of singing adult men. However one might bear in mind:

Not all choristers decide to continue singing
Of those that do, some may not have the same vocal quality after their voices break
Of those with good voices, not all wish go on to be choral scholars
Of the choral scholars (who often read other subjects than Music) not many decide to become professional singers
Of those that want do become pros, not all succeed in making it big time

All I'm trying to say is that there is a big filter in operation, and one would not expect more than a tiny minority of choristers from any one choir to end up being 'household name' professional singers, though many, luckily, will sing in good amateur and semi-pro choirs. I am also dubious about any notion that anything you 'do' with a pre-adolescent voice will affect the quality of the mature voice, which, for men, does not settle down until early twenties, and is IMO down to the lottery of biology.

[Magnificat]

Ardcarp

I agree with everything you say.

I believe,however, that the current wisdom is that boys should not stop singing after their voices change as used to be thought desirable. I believe four years was the preferred gap. These days the experts believe that boys should build upon the training they have received rather than waste it.

I think, therefore, that it is desirable and wise for choirmasters to try to encourage boys to carry on singing not with a view to producing household names, which as you say are always going to be very rare birds, but simply as an investment for future back rows wherever they may be.

Since he has been at St Albans ( where the boys all live locally and can easily keep up their connections with the Abbey ), Andrew Lucas has done just this by setting up a youth choir for 14/18 year old ex- choristers who wish to carry on singing with, as far as the boys are concerned, I think, some significant and very important success which, in my view, reflects well on the training he and their voice coach have provided for them as pre - adolescents as well as subsequently. Oxbridge choral scholars from St Albans Cathedral were unheard of previously even under the great BR!!

VCC

[ardcarp]

Magnificat. I agree with everything you say too, and well done St Albans.