CE Lincoln Cathedral 16th November 2011

[Gabriel Jackson]

One of my hobby horses is the fantastic singing to be heard from Eastern and Noerthern European choirs.

I agree! And apropos of which, today is Latvian Independence Day!

[DracoM]

In some ways, the saddest fact is that we are having this and previous debates on this topic at all, and indeed, it might not be taking place if the suspicion had not been growing for some time, well before this Forum btw, that boy-led choirs seem to be an increasingly endangered species - at least on BBC CE showing.

If authorities in a foundation are indeed running both boy- and girl-led choirs, then it is a question to be asked as to why we so regularly get from that foundation either the girl-led or the mixed choir when we know from decades of previous experience the same foundation runs a boy-led choir. As I asked upthread, is it the D&C's wish to promote the girl-led choirs merely to show they now have them, or is it lack of boy resources, or is it a D&C policy decision, or is it that the girl-led choirs are less hassle to run and thus more consistent particularly in the nerve-wracking context of a live tx and thus a DoM decision, or - perish the thought - could it be the BBC just very, very quietly 'suggesting'?

I don't think it is unreasonable that contributors should feel a little dismayed that a probably 1500 yr tradition seems to be under threat as never before. This section of The Radio 3 Forum came about when the BBC back in 2007 or so threatened to axe live CE altogether. The outcry was huge both from posters and DoMs nationwide. To keep reassuring the BBC that there was an informed, devoted and considerable listenership for live CE and thus lending vocal and committed grass roots force to those in the BBC Religious Affairs Dept who may have wished to lobby for live CEs to continue, The Choir thread was kept alive by the genre's fans. From that, on the old mbs, came The Choir as we have it now on The Radio 3 Forum. Historically, it revolved round CE: why? Because at that time CE was quite simply pretty well one of the very, very few regular LIVE music making events on R3 / plus the Lunchtime Concert. Many of us lamented the demise of that fine programme Choirworks, introduced by the peerless Paul Guinery, and urgency came in when Aled Jones took over the new 'The Choir' prog. It became very clear very quickly what direction this new prog was taking, and many of us felt that the protection of the 'high end' Choral Evensong became even more critical.

I absolutely endorse ardcarp's admiration for Eastern European etc choirs, and I would add a strong personal hurrah for Dutch and Scandinavian choirs and their notable eclectic repertoires. The reason they may not feature so much on The Choir threads is that many, many people posting on their [relatively infrequent] performances on R3 start threads on Performance / Platform 3 / Late Junction / BAL etc etc, and it is certainly NOT because people on here do not appreciate or want such threads to appear on The Choir. Far from it. OTOH, it would actually be very irritating for posters if there were two such threads running simultaneously on different sections of the Forum about the same event.

Maybe we / I need to search out more such musical events for posters. That said and in our defence, apart from The Sixteen, Tallis Schols, BBC Singers, there are few important choirs / concerts relayed regularly on R3. CE is the only regular, LIVE, UK choir showcase on British radio. For me, a reason to cherish it.

[AscribeUntoTheLad]

Having a small amount of time on my hands, I went through this board to the first CE discussion to see whether girls or boys had been the most prevalent. In total, out of of the cathedral/college foundations Evensongs in the last 11 months, 21 were sung by boys, 5 by girls and 7 were mixed. So it still is boys we're hearing most of the time.

Out of the 15 places that could have conceivably chosen which top line to broadcast, 7 were mixed, 4 were girls and 4 were boys. So it's not really true that girls are being favoured over boys....in fact, they seem to be being treated exactly equally!

[decantor]

AUTLad's research above seemed interesting, so I checked my own records of live CEs going back to September 2006. I lay no claim to total accuracy, and I have excluded all archive broadcasts, but I arrive at the following results for the last quinquennium:

Boys only on top........ 131 broadcasts
Girls only on top.......... 13
Boys & Girls on top...... 15
Mixed adult choirs....... 62
Unspecified................ 37

Boys-and-men services outnumber all others combined, boosted by the regular contributions of the Oxbridge and metropolitan choirs, even though boys are not available year-round. Perhaps we traditionalists worry too much, and perhaps the girls have reason to complain. I am myself surprised by these statistics. For the moment, the boy's voice is still loud and clear, and more ground can be yielded before any panic bells need sound. I shall perhaps eventually look at the stats more closely to see if there is a trend against all-male services.

[jean]

And the importance of maintaining a boys' top line has been recognised by the Roman Catholic choral foundations of Westminster and Liverpool Metropolitan Cathedrals...

Liverpool Metropolitan Cathedral has a girls' choir too, now - though they don't often get the chance to sing with the men, which restricts their repertoire. It's a good way of keeping them in their place, I suppose.

But they'll all be singing together this Sunday, for the patronal festival of Christ the King.

[DracoM]

Haven't got the stats to hand, but checking them for the last 2-3 years might be revealing.

[Miles Coverdale]

As is so often the case, perception and reality are not always the same thing.

[Gabriel Jackson]

Liverpool Metropolitan Cathedral has a girls' choir too, now - though they don't often get the chance to sing with the men, which restricts their repertoire. It's a good way of keeping them in their place, I suppose.

On the contrary, it opens up the possibility of a whole repertoire that is new to cathedral music, and uniquely theirs.

[ardcarp]

There is also a vast amount of SS and SSA music, both unacc and acc, much of it appropriate to the Catholic liturgy. So, far from being sidelined, the girls may have an opportunity to excel in this repertory.

[Gabriel Jackson]

There is also a vast amount of SS and SSA music, both unacc and acc, much of it appropriate to the Catholic liturgy. So, far from being sidelined, the girls may have an opportunity to excel in this repertory.

Exactly!

[Magnificat]

Haven't got the stats to hand, but checking them for the last 2-3 years might be revealing.

Draco

This academic year, so far, has certainly not shown a dominance of boys on the top line compared with other years, quite the opposite, in fact, which is the point I have been making.

There will be a couple of boys and men broadcasts in the run up to Christmas ( CE that is) perhaps three if Norwich broadcasts its boys ( doesn't look likely from the order of service which shows David Dunnett as Organist rather than DoM ).

The New Year looks more promising from the schedule.

As far as boys are concerned it seems to me that this Term has definitely been avoided by DoMs for whatever reasons. It's very disappointing to see such an apparent lack of confidence.

VCC.

[Simon]

Out of the 15 places that could have conceivably chosen which top line to broadcast, 7 were mixed, 4 were girls and 4 were boys. So it's not really true that girls are being favoured over boys....in fact, they seem to be being treated exactly equally!

Hmm. Well, of course there are several ways of looking at this. And one of them is that out of 15 broadcasts, only 4 were traditional boys/men. Just over 20%. Now that COULD be worrying - but, given the particular places involved, it isn't quite as bad as it looks, for various reasons that would ruffle too many feathers if mentioned openly.

[jean]

Oh go on, Simon. We can take it.

[Anna]

I enjoyed the service a lot but it just doesn't sound like a cathedral choir to my ears - I'm not being sexist, it just doesn't! If there had been girls in the choir I sang in as a boy I would have been less interested or committed to it. I know Lincoln struggle with recruitment but they are less likely to attract boys if they are not treated at least as equally as the girls and get to broadcast to the nation in their own right.

I'm just catching up with the repeat of CE now, I don't often read the reviews of it. But, Hello? What is all this about girls in the choir? Why, Heavens to Betsy, you'll next be saying Wimmin can't be Bishops! And ... boys not treated equally and getting to broadcast to the nation in their own right? What rights? Have I stumbled on an Ecclesiastical Mens Rights Movement?


Our Church has Altar Girls as well as Altar Boys (shock horror emoticon) and our Choir is mixed, does it really matter, when it comes to worship, what sex the voices are?

[DracoM]

Anna

You are literally months and months behind on this one. It's been going on and off for six months and more.