CE Lincoln Cathedral 16th November 2011

[DracoM]

Not funny, not useful and full of water-muddying.

[MrGongGong]

Sorry for offending you and it wasn't meant to be funny
I do find in genuinely interesting that Lincoln Cathedral choir (or some members of it) have sung on a Death Metal Album
I do find Laibach interesting
and
I do find its often indicative of something that people in the UK seem to think the "Europe" is "over there", I would think that the Flemish Craftsmen who collaborated in the building of "our" Cathedrals might have something to say about that ?
as would Organ builders ........

but I guess you aren't ready to think about these things ?


if you step back from your niche from time to time
you might notice some interesting things about MUSIC as a wider phenomena in society !

but if you are unable to do this then I guess that's why need need Ethnomusicology

[gainasbass]

Excellent post 30, decantor, and as someone who feels equally strongly about the role of boys (without wishing to lessen the impact made by girls' choirs in a number of our foundations), I can understand where you are coming from, and that you are obviously "speaking" straight from the heart.

It was quite obvious to me that the "Opus Dei" of which you spoke referred to the Anglican/Church of ENGLAND choral traditions (and on which the BBC broadcasts of Choral Evensong were founded originally). And the importance of maintaining a boys' top line has been recognised by the Roman Catholic choral foundations of Westminster and Liverpool Metropolitan Cathedrals, in particular, no doubt based on centuries of of tradition in this country's cathedral and collegiate foundations.

Without repeating the 'for's and against's' arguments of boys'/girls' top lines, and whilst recognising - as I have said - the importance of girls' contributions to our ecclesiastical musical traditions, we should not overlook the fact that boy choristers are the altos (counter tenors), tenors and basses of the future, and they will or should be the mainstay of our collegiate and cathedral back rows of the future. The recruitment (not to mention standards) of such individuals will be made much more difficult if we allow the status of our boy choirs to be eroded any further.

[gainasbass]

By the way, I should have added (in deference to this thread's subject) that the CE broadcast from Lincoln was extremely well sung and ordered (and I thought that CW's accompaniments - especially in the psalms and the Tomkins -were tremendous) - and that Vierne voluntary!!

[Magnificat]

Well, obviously, I'd fervently hope not, ardcarp! Choirs and DoMs must follow their own sense of what is appropriate.
My guess is that where changing mix of top lines and any subsequent debates are concerned, a lot of it is down to cash / availability of singing resources in any given area. Some favoured some not.
AND, let's face it there must now be a breed of young DoMs coming into the field who simply do NOT see all-male choirs as the necessary default position at all.

Ref standards: yes, I would agree that standards have immeasurably improved and that much of that must be down to far more regular recording of CDs by almost all foundations / schools these days, more broadcasting opportunities, increased tours, youtube, webcasts, TV and radio competitions. All singers at all levels must surely be critically aware of the eternally 'eavesdropping' public.

.

Draco,

Whether the traditional boys' choir in our cathedrals survives the next 20 years or even less in the face of recruitment difficulties and changing society will depend very much on the drive and enthusiasm of the DoM in any particular choral foundation. It is going to be a tremendous PR challenge and some will not be up to it however talented they are as musicians. Indeed I am sure that its demise will not be mourned by some DoMs whose lives, let's face it, will be much easier if they have to deal with just girls or professional ( or semi - pro ) adults only and there will always, of course, be the lazy individuals not prepared to go the extra mile to keep the tradition going.

I don't think we should kid ourselves about standards. There are some exceptionally good choirs around but there are also some very poor ones and coasting, for example, is not just a problem in schools.

As regards the broadcast: I liked the music chosen but I have to say that I have heard the Tomkins sung much better and the psalm singing was a bit too bland for my taste. There were also some strange vowel sounds to my ears. Colin Walsh has always been a fine organist and his playing a joy.

VCC

[Finzi4ever]

copied from the Truro thread as relates to yesterday's evensong:

When Truro broadcast a Solemn Evensong back in the BBC MB days, mb'ers seemed bemused by the sound of 'spoons being thrown down' onto the sanctuary floor. Do listen out for the distant tinkle of the thurible, though the thurifer on this occasion was reasonably well behaved!

Don't know if anyone noticed the distinct throwing down of spoons in yesterday's final psalm from Lincoln...?

[ardcarp]

deacantor

May I join in the clapping for #30 ?

[Miles Coverdale]

Draco,

Whether the traditional boys' choir in our cathedrals survives the next 20 years or even less in the face of recruitment difficulties and changing society will depend very much on the drive and enthusiasm of the DoM in any particular choral foundation. It is going to be a tremendous PR challenge and some will not be up to it however talented they are as musicians. Indeed I am sure that its demise will not be mourned by some DoMs whose lives, let's face it, will be much easier if they have to deal with just girls or professional ( or semi - pro ) adults only and there will always, of course, be the lazy individuals not prepared to go the extra mile to keep the tradition going.VCC

I think it would be a mistake to assume that an organist's life would necessarily be easier if s/he had a girls' choir to deal with rather than a boys'. Girls' choirs too have their difficulties - different ones, certainly, from boys' choirs, but difficulties nonetheless. Also, girls can have pushy/difficult parents just as easily as boys.

[Double Diapason]

One of the best written and to the point posts ever by decantor - couldn't agree more! No one will convince me that the reason we don't hear boys only from some places is that they are simply not good enough - they know it and think if they dont broadcast the boys we wont know it!
I enjoyed the service a lot but it just doesn't sound like a cathedral choir to my ears - I'm not being sexist, it just doesn't! If there had been girls in the choir I sang in as a boy I would have been less interested or committed to it. I know Lincoln struggle with recruitment but they are less likely to attract boys if they are not treated at least as equally as the girls and get to broadcast to the nation in their own right.

[YorkTenor]

I just wanted to say that I do completely understand why people are so keen on this issue, and I am not saying that anybody doesn't have a right to care about it. What I am saying is that it is frustrating that it seems to just be the same issue discussed every week, and having sung in several Cathedral choirs, all of which have both Boys and Girls, there are any number of reasons as to why boys and girls together often sing broadcasts, and whilst it is an issue, it just seems to always dominate everything else being discussed. I am very confused with Double Diapason's comment, because the boys and girls are surely being treated "at least equally' by broadcasting together, and why should the boys "broadcast to the nation in their own right" if the girls don't?

[MrGongGong]

It is interesting to note that any attempt to introduce a slightly wider discussion in these CE threads is immediately dismissed even if it is either light hearted or referring to things outside the niche of Cathedral music. One of the things that cliques do is to try and exclude those who they assume are not part of their club, often without knowledge. It's often assumed that contemporary music is a private club, yet if one was to turn up at the HCMF next week there would be plenty of folk willing to have an in depth and knowledgeable discussion of the relationship between the English Choral tradition and the music of (for example !) Xenakis

Some of us who might appear totally ignorant of your world actually know a fair bit about it and have worked in it !

maybe there should be a separate board for the "why not the boys" moans where there is no discussion just a series of statements ?

http://www.despair.com/tradition.html

maybe ?

[DracoM]

The trick might be to read the title of this section of the Radio 3 Forum.

[MrGongGong]

I did and my comments / questions were about that
one reason why your little niche might be doomed is the refusal of its proponents to engage in any form of discussion with the wider musical and cultural context that this music exists within

I didn't realise I had to pass a Latin exam and ask your permission to make a comment
I guess if all folk want to do is to praise or rubbish various DOMs then maybe the section needs a new title

many people in church music are interested in the wider context but obviously this is Drogos club and outsiders aren't welcome unless they are discussing Bairstow in D v/s Stanford in F

[Double Diapason]

I just wanted to say that I do completely understand why people are so keen on this issue, and I am not saying that anybody doesn't have a right to care about it. What I am saying is that it is frustrating that it seems to just be the same issue discussed every week, and having sung in several Cathedral choirs, all of which have both Boys and Girls, there are any number of reasons as to why boys and girls together often sing broadcasts, and whilst it is an issue, it just seems to always dominate everything else being discussed. I am very confused with Double Diapason's comment, because the boys and girls are surely being treated "at least equally' by broadcasting together, and why should the boys "broadcast to the nation in their own right" if the girls don't?

What I meant was is that we get to hear girls on their own but not boys on their own from some places. I agree with them singing together for specials and festivals but its becoming the norm now even on a dreary wet wednesday in November. It's a cop out by some DoM's as far as I am concerned!

[ardcarp]

I think discussion of the wider choral world would be great. (I think 'The Choir' might have been originally designed for comments about Aled's programme.) One of my hobby horses is the fantastic singing to be heard from Eastern and Noerthern European choirs. The answer is, of course, for people to start threads which will lead us away from our navel gazing. So McG and others....fire away.