CE Lincoln Cathedral 16th November 2011

[pole_2_pole]

Why does every thread contain the same old clap-trap about top lines...? Bored now.

[Miles Coverdale]

I don't see broadcasting with a mixed top line as an 'excuse' not to broadcast boys or girls on their own. I think it's more the case that if you have two top lines, taking the more senior half of each is (presumably) going to give you a better result than using one on its own, juniors and all. My objection to the practice is that it is something of a misrepresentation, in that a choir is broadcasting which you are rather unlikely to hear if you turn up to a service at random, which rather goes against what I thought was the idea of broadcasts, namely that of 'eavesdropping' on a service. One could of course argue that that notion disappeared long before anywhere had two top lines.

[decantor]

The girls should have they turn certainly but why are the broadcasts from Lincoln always considered to be special occasions and sung by mixed forces? To me this is increasingly looking like an excuse for not broadcasting the boys and begs the question: are they good enough and if not why not?

VCC

A friend of mine attended a choir rehearsal and subsequent service, sung by boys and men, at Lincoln in the last few days. He reported (1) that the boys were initially a bit shoddy, but were quickly sorted out in detail by Aric Prentice; (2) that during the rehearsal the boys were reminded that they needed to be on the top their game for this week's broadcast (which led me to believe it might be an all-male CE); and (3) that the service itself was excellently sung. I trust the last point will reassure VCC, even though both he and I would have liked to hear for ourselves.

Why does every thread contain the same old clap-trap about top lines...? Bored now.

And bored too, no doubt, by all discussions involving HIPP, gut strings, baroque ornamentation, valveless trumpets, and conductor input. Surely the best response to boredom over performance detail is to ignore rather than condemn. No post is required reading, and MBers should be free to discuss what is important to them.

[bach736]

Why does every thread contain the same old clap-trap about top lines...? Bored now.

Well, I'm with pole_2_pole on this one. It's 'ground-hog day' around here. You don't expect to open your paper every morning and find the same editorial and letters page endlessly repeated.

Simply restating your personal dogmas each week does not make for a serious discussion of anything. It must be very depressing for the young choristers committed to offering daily worship on our behalf to find that the most frequently asked question on this board is whether they should be singing at all.

[DracoM]

< My objection to the practice is that it is something of a misrepresentation, in that a choir is broadcasting
which you are rather unlikely to hear if you turn up to a service at random,
which rather goes against what I thought was the idea of broadcasts >


I tend to find much to agree with in MC's words here.

Yes, I can indeed fully understand that a foundation may wish to put out its best voices, but that rather turns that CE more into a PR showcase than an a service we 'eavesdrop'. Now, in Lincoln's case, there is customarily no sung evensong on a Wednesday according to their schedule, so that in a way, there is perhaps a greater reason for mixing voices - if that is what they are to do - but nevertheless, the impression given can be that either the girls or the boys sui generis are unworthy of promotion to the broadcast and only a hybrid is - pretty difficult to avoid that thought whatever the practicalities on the ground might be. Things like this are happening sufficiently often in CE for us at least to ask if we are seeing the end of the traditional boy-led cathedral choir, or is it just that DoMs with boy and girl choirs are keen to promote their place's encouragement of girls, hitherto a rarity, and we have thus coincidentally a whole run of girls or mixed voice choirs as a way of trumpeting accessibility and how un-male-dominated the cathedral world now is?

If it is, then the traditional boy-led choir sound - an inimitable one for me - might be seen to becoming an ever rarer feature of the cathedral landscape. Which, if true, is a bit sad.

[fsharpminor]

In what way is 'O Wilhelme pastor bone' a prayer for Wolsey, whose Christian name was Thomas? I'd always understood it was a prayer to St William of York - so I suppose it might have been commissioned by Wolsley who was successively Dean and Archbishop of York - though it seems unlikely.

[Chris Watson]

I'm quoting from David Skinner's TCM edition of the Taverner "According to the original statutes of Cardinal College, Oxford (now Christ Church) where JT was the first master of the choristers (1526-30) each day after Compline the choir was to sing three votive antiphons in polyphony, the first to the Trinity, the second to the Blessed Virgin Mary, the third to St William of York." And the translation of the Wilhelme text includes the phrase "Especially, we pray, protect Cardinal Thomas our founder". It is, however, a hypothetical reconstruction of the original. The more famous text "O Christe Jesu" is an Elizabethan adaptation. There is also a version with Henry's name, which David suggests comes from the 1540s, when Christ Church was re-founded by Henry the 8th.

[DracoM]

Well, for me, Colin Walsh's Vierne was the liveliest thing in that CE.

Was it just me or was that just ever so slightly odd psalm singing? Abrupt, stop/start style? Hmm.
Introit OK, Tomkins canticles - good baritone soloist, really led from the front. CW seem to play right down for the Brahms, could hardly hear him. Was that intentional? Liked the precentor.

[ardcarp]

I've been having a few thoughts.

IMO the standard of singing from cathedrals with choir-schools has gradually improved over the past 40 years. Whilst of course there were some memorable broadcasts, there were also some pretty dreadful ones; tuning and ensemble that wouldn't pass muster today. Also, IMO, I think the very existence of broadcast CE on Wednesdays (and in the past Fridays) has helped raise standards as O&Cs/DoMs have been ever mindful that St Custard's down the road might be stealing a march on them and they'd better raise their game or else.

Now we come to the Message Boards, both the old BBC one and this one. I happen to know that some (actually quite a lot of) DoMs and back-row men keep a close eye on our Forum. Whilst they are superficially a bit scornful of our ramblings and snipings from the sidelines, they are in reality VERY sensitive to our opinions of their efforts. Consequently they are ever anxious to produce their very best 'show', which might mean fielding the whole team (i.e. boys and girls, mixed) rather than letting us eavesdrop on a typical 'wet, foggy afternoon' CE with the boys' or the girls' choir separately.

What I am trying to say is that maybe, to some extent, the trend which some see as the end of a great tradition (if not the world) is at least partly our fault.

[DracoM]

Well, obviously, I'd fervently hope not, ardcarp! Choirs and DoMs must follow their own sense of what is appropriate.
My guess is that where changing mix of top lines and any subsequent debates are concerned, a lot of it is down to cash / availability of singing resources in any given area. Some favoured some not.
AND, let's face it there must now be a breed of young DoMs coming into the field who simply do NOT see all-male choirs as the necessary default position at all.

Ref standards: yes, I would agree that standards have immeasurably improved and that much of that must be down to far more regular recording of CDs by almost all foundations / schools these days, more broadcasting opportunities, increased tours, youtube, webcasts, TV and radio competitions. All singers at all levels must surely be critically aware of the eternally 'eavesdropping' public.

The difference is that most opinions on performances are exchanged in private. Here, anyone can express their opinions and we ALL know just how amazingly varied those can be. It is in the nature of people in the public eye / ear that the slightest criticisms are always taken to heart more than the praise.

On the whole, these CE threads are not destructive, particularly of the very young in choirs, and indeed pretty complimentary, and many of these who do contribute are pretty well-versed in the literature of the genre and have sung a good deal themselves.

And the very bottom line is that ALL contributions on these threads, whatever their tone, proceed from a very deep love of the huge range of styles and musics we hear every week. That really must not be lost sight of - by all who come here either to read, or more particularly to write.

[ardcarp]

And the very bottom line is that ALL contributions on these threads, whatever their tone, proceed from a very deep love of the huge range of styles and musics we hear every week. That really must not be lost sight of - by all who come here either to read, or more particularly to write.

I absolutely agree! When I'd finished my ramblings (above) I did realise that they might be construed as a criticism of the Forum and its many contributors. That was certainly not my intention....indeed I have always stressed that all opinions are welcome, and you don't need to be any sort of 'expert' to have one or to express one. I suppose we ought to be...what, pleased, proud, humbled...that we are taken notice of. My point was that the pressure felt by choirs ever to 'up' their standards (and we might be a tiny part of that pressure) inevitably leads to the rolling out of the big guns (the mixed choir) which some on the boards don't especially like.

I think the special occasion is a pretty good reason for the above (I have cited before Malcolm Archer's last Christmas at Wells...totally spectacular) but I guess some see the Wednesday live broadcast as a special occasion.

[ardcarp]

I meant to add that (having just LA-ed it) Lincoln's CE this afternoon was very enjoyable, and they gave the Tomkins a good airing.

[DracoM]

< I guess some see the Wednesday live broadcast as a special occasion.>

And, quite rightly, some foundations just do not, but see it as another service at which we eavesdrop.
Problem comes if your schedule does not - as with Lincoln - run to an evensong midweek, then you have to do 'something special'. Tricky.

[decantor]

I wish people would talk about something other than which set of choristers are singing, it doesn't matter. Some people need to get their priorities right

It's a funny thing, but my hackles easily rise when someone starts to dictate to me what my priorities should be. I'm always afraid that they will soon be directing my charitable donations, and even the way I should vote in national elections. It just doesn't seem very democratic - more European than English. And so I take the liberty of publishing my priorities as they relate to this forum:

----Priority #1: that the Opus Dei should continue to be sung chorally in our cathedrals
----Priority #2: that choral performances should maintain at least current standards, and hopefully improve on them
----Priority #3: that boys should have at least an equal opportunity to sing as girls or women
----Priority #4: that choral services should continue to draw on the established repertoire, and possibly extend the range
----Priority #5: that new music - perhaps through commissions - should constantly be added to the liturgical repertoire
----Priority #6: that services should be made available through the media - BBC live broadcasts, webcasts, CDs, and the whole range

Six priorities will maybe do for now. #3 is obviously the sticking point at the moment. I am instructed by Big Brother that my concern over whether or not boys sing is irrelevant. But my greater priorities are already being met - the Opus Dei is being sung, and standards are pretty damn good all round. On what grounds are my concerns over #3 illegitimate? I care about the issue, and will not be browbeaten into not caring by those who think they have some superior view.

I thought Ely gave us a good service a week ago, and Lincoln were superb today (even if I don't like the German Requiem). But I spent nearly 20 years of my career trying to persuade boys to sing the liturgical repertoire, and I will not be bullied into thinking the role of boys in this context is of no consequence. I have absolutely no wish to exclude girls of any age, but I am afraid that PC will increasingly sideline the part that boys have to play. Those who would exclude this issue from our discussions are playing fast-and-loose with an ancient tradition that still feeds the national musical life. So let me pontificate as so many others do: if you have lost your desire to hear boys sing in cathedrals, you have severed your link with the Anglican choral tradition. Contentious? Yes. Irrelevant? No. We do have the right to discuss what we regard as important, and those who would close our mouths should look back into history and consider what the closing of mouths involves.

[MrGongGong]

It just doesn't seem very democratic - more European than English. .

(sorry for the repeats !)
but

last time I looked England was part of Europe ?

Lincoln Cathedral (for example) is also European, who do you think did the stained glass ?

Opus Dei (this version) is a fine piece of work (other Dei's are , of course available )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opus_Dei_(album)

particularly "Geburt einer Nation" which John Peel described as being sung by a particularly gruff fozzie bear (a Russian Bass obviously !)

I'd relax a bit decantor
I love these discussions of the finer points of choral music and its sociological context , they are most illuminating (really !) in the way in which they reveal how people grapple with music as, a sonic phenomena and music as a fixed / evolving / changing tradition . Niche music is what we do well in the UK , (HCMF this weekend) and we should celebrate it