Choral Evening Prayer Westminster Cathedral November, 2nd 2011

[W.Kearns]

I found the Latin utterly fitting - in all its glassy clarity.

[french frank]

If I could be a little bit facetious: I'm not at all familiar with the way Latin is usually pronounced these days in English Catholic services and, erm, I was reminded a bit of Edward Heath speaking French

But the music! the music! really, how can one be anything but grateful to Victoria and the Westminster choir?

[MusicTeacher25]

I have been following CE for many years, and the forums, but yet have never been moved to comment before until today. Victoria's Requiem setting is one of the most sublime I know, and I have been a 'Drome' fan for almost all of my adult life, since visiting in the early 90's, so I was looking forward to today enormously, and indeed had encouraged my Upper Sixth to listen as well.

I was of the belief that they only use Latin for the Mass on a Saturday at the Cathedral, but perhaps All Souls is an exception? It did seem to feel a little deliberate to me, particularly when you heard the contrast between the Italianate choir speaking the responses and the Priest speaking in a very English way. That being said, I thought he sang very well, and preached quite interestingly.

But the singing, for me, was disappointing. An overzealous treble constantly trying to win the 'I can sing first' prize, the basses almost non-existent compared to normal, giving none of the that extraordinary richness of tone that this choir is famed for, and as for the tempos... What on earth was he thinking? It's not impressive, it's just ruddy boring. The work is in cut common time, except for the motet (which is in common time..) Surely this implies a special difference once you finally reach the release of Versa est? But not today.. It just felt like we were desperately filling the space so as not to have an organ voluntary (but of course, they might never have one there on this feast day I suppose). And why did every section have to have a ritenuto extended enough to file one's nails in? Tuning not desperately accurate in the top parts - thought they sounded tired, but then the tempos would do that..

Sorry to rant, but to hear my favourite choir sing one of my favourite pieces was something I was really looking forward to.

Ah well..

[french frank]

Welcome, MT25!

Well, how will the debate unfold....?

[Finzi4ever]

"fraffly public school"

Pray tell, DM, what's a fraffly public school???

[DracoM]

Resolutely pronouncing Latin syllabically as if it was a class exercise uttered by a slightly bored Magister so that it sounds as if it is really in English but in this funny foreign lingo. No attempt whatever to give it any lilt, rhythm or even a hint of Italianate to bring out the music. He made it sound like a posh shopping list.

And I am still trying to come to terms with MT25's provocations! I'll think of something. Maybe I will actually listen again, but not tonight. Just finished hearing St Thomas Fifth Ave NYC singing same piece live via their website. Clarity particularly from the exemplary men, much better sound pallette too. Nothing like as densely packed and 'crowded' as the BBC's felt this p.m.

[jean]

It wasn't a public-school pronunciation of Latin - it was the usual Italianate pronunciation that's still used in Catholic churches when they use Latin at all, though possibly spoken in rather an English public school accent.

The music was wonderful - the daringly slow tempi expecially at the beginning did work, I thought.

But since so many people on this thread have objected to the quality of modern translations of the Catholic liturgy, and since unfortunately there aren't any C17 translations one might use, it seems churlish to object to a bit of Latin instead.

[ardcarp]

Yes indeed, welcome MT25

But the singing, for me, was disappointing. An overzealous treble constantly trying to win the 'I can sing first' prize, the basses almost non-existent compared to normal, giving none of the that extraordinary richness of tone that this choir is famed for, and as for the tempos... What on earth was he thinking? It's not impressive, it's just ruddy boring. The work is in cut common time, except for the motet (which is in common time..) Surely this implies a special difference once you finally reach the release of Versa est? But not today.. It just felt like we were desperately filling the space so as not to have an organ voluntary (but of course, they might never have one there on this feast day I suppose). And why did every section have to have a ritenuto extended enough to file one's nails in? Tuning not desperately accurate in the top parts - thought they sounded tired, but then the tempos would do that..

Agreed, it was not the gutsy singing of a type one often gets from them. It's as if MB were turning aside from that amazing legacy (Tenebrae of Gerrge Malcolm and the astonishing Frank Martin/Pizzetti disc of J O'D) and trying something a bit different. He was clearly after a very slow, sustained and homogeneous sound. I didn't find it 'ruddy boring' though I personally have always done it with more movement and more sense of line. I must LA, but I wasn't aware of your star-struck treble! The sound was less 'continental' than usual, and there wasn't much Iberian passion....but I really do think MB decided on a certain approach and brought it off. Mrs Ardcarp sucked her teeth at the occasional narrow major third from trebles, but hey...so what?

[gainasbass]

Well, I was able to listen (albeit I am struggling to remember/come to terms with the 3.30 bit!), and I can appreciate the boarders' posts about the music and the spoken/Latin parts of this service. What has to be remembered is that the wonderful Victoria setting was sung in the context of a Cathedral service and the tempi were appropriately slower than, say, a concert performance by The Sixteen.

I'll try to listen again, but over the hi-fi the Choir sounded well balanced and I thought that the basses were quite prominent and provided a firm anchor when required. Well done Martin Baker and the Choir of WC!

[Magnificat]

Tuning not desperately accurate in the top parts - thought they sounded tired, but then the tempos would do that..

MT25

Tuning in the top parts was the main criticism that Sir David Willcocks had of George Malcolm's choir at WC and has been one of mine of the choirs there for years although I have often been ridiculed for it. It's because of the way they sing.

Being tired is the old excuse rolled out when boys aren't singing particularly well but it may well be true here because the choir have just returned from a,no doubt, very gruelling trip to the USA.

I enjoyed the service there was some lovely sonorous singing as usual in that very generous acoustic (which can hide a multitude of sins) and obviously WC sing repertoire and in a style ( even if not really my taste) that suits it.

It's when you hear choirs singing away from home in a more normal acoustic that you can judge whether they are all they are cracked up to be. It's not just WC, King's, for example, never travel well, in my opinion, they always sound better in that glorious building and other college choirs often struggle to fill a much bigger space.

I thought the homily was well preached but, as has been said, the cheery goodbye did sound slightly out of place. The service should have been left to finish naturally and without comment it would have better suited the occasion.

I'd have preferred to hear a Choral Evensong for All Souls but since we were given a Requiem Mass there is probably no better place in the country to hear one so thanks to Martin Baker and his team at WC.

VCC

[decantor]

I was very grateful for the Latin, but of course I’m horribly biased. I could accept the pronunciation – anything more ‘Italianate’ would surely have sounded theatrical from so English a voice – but I liked most the fluency, the delivery by a man familiar with his text and its significance. (Unfortunately, that text bears roughly the same literary relationship to ‘proper’ Latin as Dan Brown does to Shakespeare, but at least it does the job and is proving fairly durable.)

Ah yes, the music. Wonderful – I could have listened till midnight. It’s true that the trebs were less reedy than heretofore, but they remained steely. Most of all, I admired the way this choir circumvented the usual need to breathe when singing; I admired the way that, even at a stately adagio, the sound was never still – it was constantly going somewhere or on the way back, and even at rest it quivered with life; I admired the attention to detail, as when cum was distinctly rendered as ‘coombe’ (koom?); I admired the way the acoustic was deployed as an allied force on the flanks. And so on and so on…… though I did find the plainsong just a mite more pedestrian than expected. I am utterly mystified by MT25’s reservations, and am thankful that, lacking such exquisite taste, I was able to relish Victoria at a slower pace than allegretto . In sum, an hour well spent, though it seemed but a minute – and all this from someone who has no great affection for RC services in the CE slot.

[DracoM]

The Kyrie alone was worth the entrance money. Risky speed, but the way the whole choir lifted seamlessly, in total control, shifting the volume and intensity was miraculous.

As I said above, I listened with the score to hand. I have sung this piece many times, BUT because I was not concentrating on my own part, I was very struck in this service by the way Victoria constantly and insistently plays the top three lines against each other. Much of the time, when listening from outside as it were, you THINK you're hearing one treble line working against as well as with lower parts as with much polyphony, but actually you aren't. The top two treble lines constantly interweave, change places, leading, echoing, such that the leading trebles and altos emerge from textures and are made to sound like soloists. If you have the taught/cultivated steeliness of West Cath trebs, you are going to, nay you are required to, cut through big textures and lead. That's your job. If you have an acoustic like that, you double the need to cut through to stop the sound simply being a 'holy wash'. Victoria is NOT wash. The lines are very, very clearly etched, and a good performance reflects that. This was live, not edited CD-quality, and LAing this a.m. brought out just how huge the burden is on the top treble lines to carry the argument. The Basses by and large are busking/anchoring as are the altos - and fantastically well that second treble and alto line did their job - the tenors have some virtuoso bits to do as well at critical point. But the trebles are the live heart of that Requiem, and there is nowhere to hide. I thought the St Thomas men later in the day were better than West Cath, much clearer in diction surprisingly, and less waffly in tone - the St T webcast was a 'cleaner' less dense palette and helped the textures to stand out.

For me, the West Cath boys were tireless - well, nearly. That is one heck of a big sing and particularly at those tempi, and their responsiveness to the demands was exemplary. They sang in huge arcs, apparently denying gravity and the rules of breathing much of the time, and I was deeply impressed. Yes, there were blemishes - alas, the sumptuous and tragic motectum Verrsa Est in Luctum sagged just a bit, but I was prepared to be carried by the music rather than nit-pick.

All that singing in one hour? Come on, give them a break.

Two years ago I was in the great chapel of El Escurial outside Madrid and this was the music, known and sung for literally thirty years, that instantly resonated in my head throughout the walk round. Under the chapel is the astonishing mausoleum containing passageways with rank upon rank of sarcophagi, and the central hexagonal space is sheathed in black marble dimly lit under the chapel floor. In the chapel itself, you can see the grilled window above the gospel side of the high altar [ and I do mean high!] behind which Phillip II would kneel to hear the office sung. This music is of a piece with that severe, ascetic, almost forbidding splendour. For me, Westminster captured Victoria's own intense meditation on death in this service.

Sorry it did not take some others as forcefully.

[subcontrabass]

I thought the Victoria was extremely well done. Tempi were suited to the building. The parts blended. The two treble lines were well-balanced as they wove around each other.

Very nice to have a service where the music is "all of a piece".

[onemarathon]

I heard on Listen Again (3.30 is just no good for people who work) and the Kyrie was indeed sung (after the Confiteor).

Kyrie was indeed exquisite. Especially the Christe eleison - surely mourning music if there ever was one. My favourite part of the service.

Interesting tempi for though - slow, sustained and stately. Worked well in parts (K, S, A particularly), though felt abit austere in others, and Baker wasn't quite able to pull it off in the Versa est in luctum. The two treble lines were very impressive indeed - especially Treble 2.

But the choir did sound "top heavy" in terms of blend - were there fewer men than usual? Whatever happened to that London 'men' sound?

Would have liked a bit more plainchant if I'm honest - so rarely do we hear the Westminster house-style of chanting (the more sombre monastic style seems to be all the rage). Ideally - the Mass Ordinary and 1/2 motets to the Victoria setting, and the introit, gradual, etc to plainchant. Would have liked to hear the Dies Irae sequence sung to plainchant.

[ardcarp]

MT25 Have you listened to the St Thomas New York webcast of the Victoria Requiem (Solemn Mass) from yesterday? I think you might be bowled over by it.

http://www.saintthomaschurch.org/calendar/2011/11/02/worship/2649/