Choral Evening Prayer Westminster Cathedral November, 2nd 2011

[french frank]

What other innovations can we expect in future to comply, for example, with our brave new world of diversity and equality? I'm not going to think about it!!

Probably very wise, VCC!


Interestingly, Magdalen College choir is also seizing the opportunity to sing the Victoria 1605 Solemn Requiem on Wednesday (scroll down to 'Some Special Events This term').

[Anna]

I'm really looking forward to the broadcast. CE doesn't always have to come from one of The Shires.

On Wednesday, 15th September, 2005, for the Feast of the Exaltation of the Precious and Life-giving Cross, an Orthodox CE broadcast came from the Trinity Cathedral in the Danilov Monastery, the oldest monastery in Moscow, now the official residence of the Russian Patriarch. The Cathedral Choir directed by Georgi Safonov sang music by Dodonov, Chesnokov, Goncharov and Trubachev. The Gospel for the day was John 12 vv28-36. Archpriest Andrei Teterin gave the homily and the commentator was Canon Michael Bourdeaux. And marvellous it was as well. If R3 is to embrace diversity within Choral Evensong once in a while then I'm all for it.

[DracoM]

IIRC, many years ago, they used to broadcast an Orthodox service from the Russian church in Paris as well as the one in Ennismore Gdns London from time to time.

[subcontrabass]

I'm really looking forward to the broadcast. CE doesn't always have to come from one of The Shires.

On Wednesday, 15th September, 2005, for the Feast of the Exaltation of the Precious and Life-giving Cross, an Orthodox CE broadcast came from the Trinity Cathedral in the Danilov Monastery, .... If R3 is to embrace diversity within Choral Evensong once in a while then I'm all for it.

Perhaps one day we might even get a properly structured Orthodox service in the slot, rather than a selection of extracts in random order.

[subcontrabass]

IIRC, many years ago, they used to broadcast an Orthodox service from the Russian church in Paris as well as the one in Ennismore Gdns London from time to time.

This used to be at Christmas (Julian Calendar) and Easter. The broadcast used the Radio 3 wavelengths from midnight to give a relay of the broadcast on the BBC Russian service. The Easter service was live, the Christmas service was recorded earlier and edited before transmission (I sang on the one in January 1969). The Christmas broadcasts disappeared some years before the Easter ones.

The switch to broadcasting from Paris at Easter for the two years (IIRC) before domestic transmission stopped (when Radio 3 started 24 hour broadcasting) was, I gather, mainly because the service in Paris was entirely in Church Slavonic whereas the London services were including some English, which was not useful for broadcasting to Russia. The stopping of these broadcasts also coincided with the demise of the Soviet Union and the start of broadcasting of services within Russia.

[subcontrabass]

But the programme 'is' Choral Evensong because, or when, the service is one of Choral Evensong; much in the way that many Radio 3 music programmes 'are' classical except when they're something else, like jazz. The deviations - if I may call them that without offence - are occasional and give great pleasure to those who normally are not catered for.

The BBC has included non-Anglican services in this slot for around 50 years. I remember the first: Vespers (entirely in Latin) from a Benedictine Monastery (Quarr Abbey, I think). The singing (all plainsong) was, to put it politely, somewhat "rustic". The service was also somewhat shorter than a Cathedral Evensong, so the monks had to add several extra items at the end to fill up the time.

[DracoM]

CORRECTION: I suggested upthread that people might like to hear the St Thomas Choir NYC singing [a] Victoria and Byrd on Nov 1st and [b] Victoria Requiem on Nov 2nd at 10.30 p.m. our time. Stupid of me to have forgotten the clocks going back!!!!
SO
revise those times to 9.30 p.m.

I know because I have just tuned in to the Tuesday webcast - to hear the closing chords of the voluntary only!!

The webcast will be available later via the same website, never fear!

[Simon]

I'm really looking forward to the broadcast. CE doesn't always have to come from one of The Shires.

On Wednesday, 15th September, 2005, for the Feast of the Exaltation of the Precious and Life-giving Cross, an Orthodox CE broadcast came from the Trinity Cathedral in the Danilov Monastery, the oldest monastery in Moscow, now the official residence of the Russian Patriarch. The Cathedral Choir directed by Georgi Safonov sang music by Dodonov, Chesnokov, Goncharov and Trubachev. The Gospel for the day was John 12 vv28-36. Archpriest Andrei Teterin gave the homily and the commentator was Canon Michael Bourdeaux. And marvellous it was as well. If R3 is to embrace diversity within Choral Evensong once in a while then I'm all for it.

Ah, well done, you found when it was then! I remember it well, and the glowing comments from most of us!

-0-0-0-

The thing with this discussion is that I see both sides: I agree with VCC (as most of us will) that the traditional boys/men evensongs according to BCP are an immensely precious tradition that we must preserve, as a pinnacle of excellence, at almost all costs. I can understand that when these are not broadcast there could be a feeling of disappointment. I also see how RC services can be unappealing: they are, usually, to me too. But I also think it good that the girl choirs to have a chance sometimes. I like the occasional variation, as long as the quality of singing is there. The once a year contemporary service has at times thrown up some real gems. The odd service from abroad is usually interesting and often well sung - though I doubt that the one Anna mentions as quoted above will be easily bettered - a truly glorious hour, that was.

In short, a balanced fare of mainly Anglican CE from a wide range of foundations, interspersed with the occasional departure from the norm, is what I'd regard as good and interesting programming.

And as far as I see it, that's about what we get, thankfully - though one could argue that some years the London/Oxbridge bias is a bit too obvious - though this year perhaps less so.

Regarding this week's offering specifically, as I stated on page 1 (and I've only just read, with some surprise, the strange responses to my post - what on earth are you people on about?) the music is superb, and if the choir sings it well it should be a treat.

[DracoM]

Mightily impressive: that hard-edged but flexible tone that leads, boys sounding like real boys singing, giving it all they've got but without losing control of consummate skills and sensitivity. They inhabited that music. One of the real delights of this service for me were the rock steady second treble and alto lines, much of the time unobtrusive, but intervening with heart-stopping intensity at crucial moments and pulling so much of the rich harmonic structure together. Tenors wove very finely round the lines too, basses just a tad woolly for me, maybe lacked that sepulchral 'blackness' that anchors the Victoria textures and makes them sound so Iberian.

However, I do have one issue and that was the decision to conduct 90% of the spoken parts if the service in an almost caricature, fraffly public school and very English Latin. Practically all RC services these days in English churches are 100% in the vernacular - the SINGING may be in Latin, but not the rest of the service, and for my money there was no need to make damned sure that very few people could follow the intricacies of the worship. The BBC did not provide translations. How soon did they know this was going to happen?

So, bold decision by the BBC - if it was theirs, but I kept wondering if so universal a use of Latin for a national broadcast to a wide variety of religions would have been the case under Basil Hume? Maybe that's being just a bit naughty. I look forward to being rapped across the knuckles for such lese majeste.

[Anna]

However, I do have one issue and that was the decision to conduct 90% of the spoken parts if the service in an almost caricature, fraffly public school and very English Latin. Practically all RC services these days in English churches are 100% in the vernacular - the SINGING may be in Latin, but not the rest of the service, and for my money there was no need to make damned sure that very few people could follow the intricacies of the worship. The BBC did not provide translations. How soon did they know this was going to happen?

I loved the broadcast, OK, you may describe the Latin as iffy Public School, (and, goodness, they have a lot to answer for) but, you know, Latin ain't that difficult, I struggle with it at times but it was clear to me and I'm sure, even for those who could not totally understand, a wonderful service.

I cannot understand why Latin cannot be a component of Choral Evensong. Seems normal to me

[DracoM]

I did not mean to imply that I thought Latin in CE was out of place, if so, I would like to correct that.
Just seemed a bit odd to run a service in which 90% of the spoken parts were in Latin. Yes, thanks to my background and education, my Latin is sufficiently OK [ not that public school Latin, tho'!!] to deal with it too, but I'd not be surprised if a significant proportion of CE listeners might have struggled more than a bit.

Maybe it's not an important issue for most CE listeners and I am being over-picky?

[french frank]

So, bold decision by the BBC - if it was theirs, but I kept wondering if so universal a use of Latin for a national broadcast to a wide variety of religions would have been the case under Basil Hume? Maybe that's being just a bit naughty. I look forward to being rapped across the knuckles for such lese majeste.

I wouldn't have thought it was too much of a strain to listen to words that weren't comprehensible for a short while. (R3 also broadcast a programme of Pliny's Natural History in Latin and I don't remember people complaining that it wasn't in English!).

First, though, the music: I thought it was beautifully performed and eloquently expressed the feelings. You don't have to be religious to sometimes think solemnly of those you have lost.

[vinteuil]

However, I do have one issue and that was the decision to conduct 90% of the spoken parts if the service in ... Latin.

Good Lord, Radio 3 will be doing operas in German and Italian next!

[ardcarp]

I was impressed most of all by the incredible control of the deliberately chosen very slow tempi. They worked for me (and I can imagine hearing it in the Drome itself) in everything except, perhaps, the Lux Aeterna which became a bit 'notey'. That feat of slowness, especially by youngsters with smaller lung capacity, has only been achieved, to my memory, by George Guest's very last Allegri Miserere from St John's which almost defied gravity!

I rather agree with Draco about the spoken (and very un-Italianate) Latin. No objection in principle, but it gave the service a rather inconsistent feeling, especially with that sudden 'cheerio' in English just before the final Pax Vobiscum.
IMHO if they're going to do a Requiem Mass as a piece of religious theatre they should avoid the temptation to be chatty!

Going back to matters choral, I thought the 1st trebles were less 'continental' than I've heard them...quite head-voicy really, and very pleasing...whilst the 2nds had a bit more steely edge. The men were also less rumbustious than I've heard them on occasions...i.e. they weren't singing their ******** off, so well done Martin Baker!

[DracoM]

Totally agree about tempi. I tried singing with them in one or two places, and...erm..yes, the tempi were slow and brilliantly sustained. Not sure I agree about the trebs: the two lines constantly twine in and out of each other from pretty low to top of the stave, and I was impressed by the way they 'lifted' into that steel as they climbed the phrase. Still, whatever, it was deeply satisfying.

And at 9.30 p.m., St Thomas Fifth Avenue!! An Anglican choir doing the Latin / Iberian. Interesting comparison: 5 and a bit hours and 3, 000 miles apart, two fantastic choirs. one transcendental mass setting.