St Thomas Fifth Avenue NYC

[DracoM]

A major point about St T's sound is that many of their trebles can and do sing on past the usual stop ages of English boy trebles. The American high school system means that a number will be singing, and more to the point, expect themselves to be singing with big rich voices either natural or 'taught;' as Mr Scott says, well into our Y9[/B]. Hence there are currently two, three or more fourteen year olds in that choir - currently recording an all Bach CD - leading the top line. The difference is that they are bolder, more mature toned, more musically adroit than many in Anglican set-ups who seem to do 'the change' earlier.

It would be very interesting to know how many genuine Y9 lads there are singing full treble late into June / July in top line UK foundations as St T's has curently and indeed most years. The traditional move date in UK from choir prep schools at the end of Y8 to their senior schools means that for those lads there is a terrific culture clash between being in Y8 and top of your game at one school, and a very newbie Y9 at another school. Yes, 'peer pressure', changes of desired image etc etc. Well, yes, but these days, a goodly number of foundations have boys who do not change schools at Y8, but does that mean they sing on through Y9, or.......well, or what?

[Miles Coverdale]

A goodly number of foundations have boys who do not change schools at Y8

Really? I'd have thought that the choristers (of both sexes) at most English cathedrals go to a prep school, meaning they will leave at the end of Year 8. All of the Oxbridge all-male choirs and most of those both in London and outside operate on this basis. I can't think of that many that don't.

[DracoM]

Well, at random....

Ahem..... Worcester? Gloucester? Bristol?

King's Schools at both Gloucs and Worcs Junior change at Y6>7. Bristol choristers are educated at Bristol Cathedral Choir School is actually from Y7 onward. Blackburn recruits from 'all local schools'. Hereford choristers are at the Cathedral School from arrival until 18. Lichfield Cathedral School educates choristers from dot to 18. Norwich has its chorister educated at the Cathedral School Y7 onwards. Peterborough choristers attend King's Peterborough from dot through to whenever. All these schools have financial support, bursaries, scholarships etc. But within each of those schools, her are all manner of subtle boundaries in terms of 'junior' depts, admissions tranches etc, so..............

So in some foundations, not quite as clear cut as the more traditional entirely separate prep school eg KCC, NCO, St John's Cantab, Truro, Colet Court, Pilgrim's etc.

Interesting area of debate,. The pattern changes year by year, of course, as academies, free schools, local authority schools, public schools all shift and re-think etc etc.

[Gabriel Jackson]

The difference is that they are bolder, more mature toned, more musically adroit than many in Anglican set-ups who seem to do 'the change' earlier.

That's a huge generalisation. Some will be, some won't. Not all choristers are the same! I was a much better, more able musician at 11 than some of my colleagues who were 13. Similarly, there were 11-year olds who had much better voices than I had at 13.

[terratogen]

If I'm not mistaken, Wells, during an interval of lower-than-anticipated presence in the choir of more senior girls, briefly allowed experienced girl choristers to remain in the cathedral choir until age sixteen or so; as the girls were simply moving from one division at WCCS to another, they were on-site and available, and their experience helped to shepherd the choir through a period of change.

Could the same provisions, at least in theory, be made for boys (at Wells, Kings Peterborough, Hereford, etc.) whose treble voices remain through Year 9? Or does the issue of how to fund their places for an additional year pose too great a headache to justify the change? (Wells' bursaries for girl choristers aren't as generous as are its bursaries for boys, so perhaps providing for Y9 boys would have been more a financial burden?)

Additionally--and I assume that those of you who've led cathedral choirs will know--would retaining older boys (whose voices may, after all, go in October of Year 9) prevent the recruitment for that year of seven-year-old probationers due to statutory restrictions on the number of choristers at a given foundation?

[DracoM]

Very interesting posting, terratogen. Many thanks. .

Reading some of the websites of some of the relevant schools, it sort of looks as if there are ways and ways of 'adjusting' finances to changing circs. I mean, if you are dealing with the education of boy choristers, you'd have to be flexible with scholarships, bursaries etc or parents would understandably be pretty scared of committing their children to on organisation that might terminate financial assistance more or less the instant their boy's voice changed!

[Magnificat]

[QUOTE=DracoM;403184It would be very interesting to know how many genuine Y9 lads there are singing full treble late into June / July in top line UK foundations as St T's has curently and indeed most years. The traditional move date in UK from choir prep schools at the end of Y8 to their senior schools means that for those lads there is a terrific culture clash between being in Y8 and top of your game at one school, and a very newbie Y9 at another school. Yes, 'peer pressure', changes of desired image etc etc. Well, yes, but these days, a goodly number of foundations have boys who do not change schools at Y8, but does that mean they sing on through Y9, or.......well, or what?[/QUOTE]

Draco,

St Albans has no preparatory choir school so, unless their voices break earlier, all the boys stay in the choir until the summer term of their fourteenth birthday - school year nine. The numbers will obviously vary from year to year. At present there is only one 14 year old but from next September, saving the boys starting to shave over the summer holidays, there should be five.

ardcarp,

I can't compare SA with St T NY at present because, like decantor, I find the sound quality of the webcast extremely poor. As for singing with aplomb SA will always give any similar choir a run for their money.

IMHO, especially considering how they have to operate, they are a class act by any standards.

VCC.

[mopsus]

I think the prep school pattern is weaker than it was. I went to a private primary school which was a 'feeder' to prep schools, including one run by the same charitable trust. My school took boys in the lower years, but had only girls in the top two. This was fine when prep schools were commoner, but the arrangement became increasingly harder to sustain. Going mixed throughout was not possible because the prep school (also struggling for numbers) objected, so pupil numbers dwindled until it had to close.

[DracoM]

Ripon of course no longer has a prep school feeding the choristers into the cathedral. They recruit far and wide in and around the city. Tricky path in a rural area.

[Triforium]

Regarding the St. T webcast sound quality, I have it on reasonably good authority that the microphones are only about twelve to fifteen feet above the choir. Wondering about the lack of immediacy some have mentioned. How different is it from the man in the van rebroadcasts, or webcasts from other foundations, assuming listeners are using their computer speakers for both? I must admit, of the several webcasts from NY I have listened to, I have not noticed the issue.

[Wolsey]

Regarding the St. T webcast sound quality, I have it on reasonably good authority that the microphones are only about twelve to fifteen feet above the choir. Wondering about the lack of immediacy some have mentioned. How different is it from the man in the van rebroadcasts, or webcasts from other foundations, assuming listeners are using their computer speakers for both? I must admit, of the several webcasts from NY I have listened to, I have not noticed the issue.

Neither have I.

[decantor]

Regarding the St. T webcast sound quality, I have it on reasonably good authority that the microphones are only about twelve to fifteen feet above the choir. Wondering about the lack of immediacy some have mentioned. How different is it from the man in the van rebroadcasts, or webcasts from other foundations, assuming listeners are using their computer speakers for both? I must admit, of the several webcasts from NY I have listened to, I have not noticed the issue.

As the one who originally raised this issue - relating more, in fact, to amplitude than quality - I must now crawl and beg forgiveness. I have just discovered, after many years of listening, that the STNYC webcast player has its own volume control, set by default to 50%. One click, and lo! I could listen in comfort at last. I offer a general apology, and a specific one to the church of St Thomas.

Life online is not always easy for one who not only carries a certain weight of years, but has always been.... erm..... technologically challenged. Now, which button do I click to post this? Ah yes, this one perhaps.....

[ardcarp]

...and may I just say that my 'sound quality issue' was about the hymns, which always come across with a fearful lag between the organ and the congregation, making them uncomfortable to listen to.

[Wolsey]

...and may I just say that my 'sound quality issue' was about the hymns, which always come across with a fearful lag between the organ and the congregation, making them uncomfortable to listen to.

This only ever appears as an 'issue' when the Taylor & Boody organ in the west gallery is used alternatim for some of the verses in hymns.

[ardcarp]

Thanks Wolsey. I know hymns are considered a bit of bore by some, but I rather enjoy them. My disappointment arises because the CDs of hymns from St Pauls made by John Scott were really excellent, despite the acoustical minefield.