St Thomas Fifth Avenue NYC

[Wolsey]

You wouldn't refer to Marie-Claire Alain, Gillian Weir, Katherine Dienes, Sarah Baldock as 'the Lady organist' so why so distinguished a musician as Renée Anne Louprette, who was introduced by name at the start of the concert? It was simply rude and condescending.

It was indeed rude and condescending to refer to the Organist and Associate Director of Music of Trinity Church, Wall Street as 'the Lady organist'.

[Simon]

Welcome to the 21st century, Simon, where gender is an irrelevance.

We'll have to agree to differ. I accept that there are some who think like this; I don't. I still enjoy the fact that there are differences between males and females.

[MrGongGong]

There have, historically, and often for good natural reasons, been tendencies for males and females to gravitate to different work and roles in society.

Of course this is true
when I suggested the same to my wife with regard to her "superior" skills in the washing up she made my voice go up a couple of octaves

[bach736]

I still enjoy the fact that there are differences between males and females.

So do I, Simon, but here we're talking about equal respect.

[ardcarp]

I'm a bit sorry I made mention of 'the female organist'. I need to unpick some personal baggage here. My most talented organ pupil ever was a girl whom I started teaching at 14 and who won an organ scholarship to a Cambridge College. This was very unusual in those days as it was an even more male-dominated scene than it is now. So I am a big supporter of equal opportunities for woman, and delighted we have people such as Sarah Baldock in a major cathedral post.

Decantor, I'm sorry if you think I should use the word 'lady'. I got into trouble once when asked to run a chamber choir. Out of past habit I referred, in the first rehearsal, to 'the ladies', meaning S and (female) A. I did hear a sharp intake of breath, and was taken to one side afterwards and warned there were some young women who strongly objected to the 'L' word. Next time I addressed them as 'women' but that met with equal disapproval from the ones who preferred to be 'ladies'. I have always settled for S and female A since, even when discussing such matters as changing facilities and dress. Luckily, none of the men minded being called men. I think we have to be very careful using the word 'ladies' nowadays as it implies a past chivalry that most fully emancipated women do not like. So unless you are in the golf or tennis club, or addressing the wife of a knight of the realm, beware!

Finally, should I, in my original post, just have said there was an excellent organ accompanist without mention of sex? Maybe; but it is sufficiently unusual, even now, to see a woman in an important church role that I felt it worth comment.

[Wolsey]

...Finally, should I, in my original post, just have said there was an excellent organ accompanist without mention of sex? Maybe; but it is sufficiently unusual, even now, to see a woman in an important church role that I felt it worth comment.

Rosemary Field (herself a former Assistant Organist of two cathedrals) becomes Deputy Director of RSCM (Education and Voluntary Networks) next month. I hope that nothing about her gender in these roles is sufficiently unusual to warrant any comment now that we are well into the twenty-first century.

[AscribeUntoTheLad]

There have, historically, and often for good natural reasons, been tendencies for males and females to gravitate to different work and roles in society. Most cathedral organists have been, and still are, male. Therefore to mention the slightly unusual fact that this was a lady is hardly sexist, but merely a statement of fact and clarification. Unless one has a particular chip one one's shoulder, which, of course, some people do.

Actually, the main reason for males and females to gravitate to different work and roles in society was that women historically have had vastly fewer rights and opportunities than men.

Yes, feel free to make the observation that the organist was female (and lament that there are not more women in organ lofts) but to call Ms Louprette the "Lady Organist" makes her sound like some kind of oddity.

[DracoM]

We seem to be heading once more into a cul-de sac that carefully steers us away from the choir and its music-making.
Why not start another thread about Gender imbalance in the musical professions if you feel that strongly about it? Would seem to have some mileage in it?

[Magnificat]

Actually, the main reason for males and females to gravitate to different work and roles in society was that women historically have had vastly fewer rights and opportunities than men.

Yes, feel free to make the observation that the organist was female (and lament that there are not more women in organ lofts) but to call Ms Louprette the "Lady Organist" makes her sound like some kind of oddity.

AUTL et al,

Are you all seriously trying to say that women do not like being referred to as ladies?

I wonder what Our Most gracious Sovereign Lady the Queen would make of this or even Our Lady Mary.

Do women refuse to use public conveniences?

Lighten up for goodness' sake.

VCC

[ardcarp]

Are you all seriously trying to say that women do not like being referred to as ladies?

Some women do not like being called 'ladies'. Your examples of Our Sovereign Lady and even Our Lady, Queen of Heaven are, if I may respectfully say so, a little extreme. And the appellation of 'ladies' and 'gentlemen' to public toilets has largely been superseded by logos of people in skirts and trousers. Whether this is because of political correctness, or because the general public is suspected of illiteracy I can't say.

I have to admit, however, that in Norway, a country one might believe to embrace Scandinavian values of social egalitarianism, the word 'dame' (lady) is used in preference to 'kwinne' (woman) to refer to females in general. How ironic that 'kwinne' is related to our word 'queen'.

[Wolsey]

... But she [Renée Anne Louprette] failed my ultimate test: in the fifth-last bar of the Britten Agnus there is an organ chord (A mi, with a high G# added for fun) marked ff; why do so many organists dib out of giving this chord full welly? But yes, [she] gauged her input very well.

As far as I'm concerned, she passed with distinction. A director with as fastidious an ear as John Scott would have regarded 'full welly' as over the top here; the addition of the manual 16' reed in the right-hand chords was quite sufficient. 'Full welly' (Tuba and 32' reed) occurred at the end of Sullivan's The Lost Chord for those who crave it. Talking of fastidious ear, how nice to hear the Chimes stop at 38' 04" and 38' 16". It brought a tear to the eye.

[Magnificat]

I trust STNY has battened down the hatches.

Wouldn't want their superb choir to be washed away - whatever would Draco do?

VCC.

[DracoM]

All services at St T have been cancelled for both Monday and Tuesday for that very reason. The choir school, of course, is on half term anyway.

[terratogen]

O, hear us when we cry to Thee for those in peril on the Hudson River.

[Resurrection Man]

..... Unless one has a particular chip one one's shoulder, which, of course, some people do.

You're spot on there, Simon. Too many people taking umbrage when none was intended. Seeing slur where none was meant. Carpe diem. Third Party Apologists....bah!