CE St Matthew's Church, Northampton 21st Sept 2011

[decantor]

Of course, those choral foundations of such high repute to which you allude must find and perform new challenges, but why do many amongst the 3 million or so CE listeners have to suffer while they do it? Let these places perform their concerts, give their recitals and experiment with new challenges, but do it in house rather than force Radio 3 CE listeners to experience such self indulgences and thus have many switch off. A number of contemporary composers also offer ‘balm and joy’ in their compositions (Dove for one) but conversely many do not. As I have said before (IMO) Radio 3 CE is not the appropriate medium for concerts and recitals nor is it an appropriate medium to demonstate technical prowess or performance ‘snobbery’.

We will have to agree to disagree...

Yes, we may have to agree to disagree. But let us be clear over the nature of our disagreement.

I disagree that the judgement of Precentor and DoM over the music to be sung in their cathedral (whether or not for a broadcast) should be rejected or subject to some higher democratic approval. I disagree that the BBC should exercise censorship over the music list for a CE - which would constitute a 'dumbing-down' of the sort that most on this board are determined to combat. And I disagree that excellence of performance ever constitutes 'snobbery' - the 'technical prowess' that renders a contemporary work manageable is the same prowess that turns a tiny Byrd gem or a mighty Handel anthem into an exquisite aural and spiritual experience. Of course a liturgical choir must needs be self-effacing, but that does not mean that its competence is to be deplored or deployed selectively.

If you accept Dove (as I do, in spades), you perhaps also accept Arvo Part and John Tavener, and even Philip Moore and Gabriel Jackson (as I do, etc). So how are we to draw a line? Why should we draw a line at all? Of course I find some contemporary liturgical works difficult and perplexing, but on what grounds do you deny me the right to hear them at all? And finally...... the huge bulk of the CE repertoire in fact comes from our grandparents' generation or earlier, where you are comfortable: is it not mean-spirited to try to exclude the small element of modern work that can bring exhilaration to some of us?

I accept absolutely your dislike for some music. I reject absolutely your desire to censor it. Is that 'agreeing to disagree'?

[DracoM]

By and large, a number of 'modern' composers aiming at religious text-based music seem to write in such a way as to be within the skill compass of only highly proficient, fully professional adult ensembles, and not often within the realistic rehearsal frame and accomplishments of the hard-working cathedral choirs whose repertoire changes pretty well every day week by week. Just look at the October service sheets for most of the major cathedrals and you will see what I mean.

One of the reasons why the cathedral repertoires are based on music from a while ago could be precisely because really contemporary stuff takes longer to rehearse and get the heads round. Whittaker, Moore, Dove, Jackson, O'Regan, Part and Taverner pilot an accessible and realistically rehearsable sort-of modern idiom / language IMO, and hard-pressed choirs made up of full time schoolchildren / back rows who have to have other work as well as their cathedral work can get to grips with it, while more esoteric pieces just take so much longer. AND such ensembles have to keep up their routine daily schedules as well. If the end results are not sufficiently rewarding [ who decides that?], DoMs can simply drop the stuff out of the reckoning because the game just ain't worth the candle, no matter now estimable it may be as music.

I'm sure that a lot of DoMs would like to programme radical stuff, but if the demands are too high, they know it will ease out rehearsal time for the everyday. While the 'older generation' material may be very familiar, even 'war horses' to US, it ought to be remembered that to most of the kids singing top lines it is brand new, such that they are learning new material most days of most terms in their choir! DoMs have to remember that all the time.

[Gabriel Jackson]

By and large, a number of 'modern' composers aiming at religious text-based music seem to write in such a way as to be within the skill compass of only highly proficient, fully professional adult ensembles, and not often within the realistic rehearsal frame and accomplishments of the hard-working cathedral choirs whose repertoire changes pretty well every day week by week. Just look at the October service sheets for most of the major cathedrals and you will see what I mean.

There is some truth in this, in some instances, but another reading of the October music lists might be that some Directors of Music are quite conservative and simply not interested in new or newer music (which is their right, of course!).

One of the reasons why the cathedral repertoires are based on music from a while ago could be precisely because really contemporary stuff takes longer to rehearse and get the heads round. Whittaker, Moore, Dove, Jackson, O'Regan, Part and Taverner pilot an accessible and realistically rehearsable sort-of modern idiom / language IMO, and hard-pressed choirs made up of full time schoolchildren / back rows who have to have other work as well as their cathedral work can get to grips with it, while more esoteric pieces just take so much longer. AND such ensembles have to keep up their routine daily schedules as well. If the end results are not sufficiently rewarding [ who decides that?], DoMs can simply drop the stuff out of the reckoning because the game just ain't worth the candle, no matter now estimable it may be as music.

I am not sure what the distinction you are making between "really contemporary" and "sort-of modern" is about - all music that is being written now is, by definition, contemporary! In my own case, it is certainly true that it's the easier pieces that get done more frequently and more widely. A second CD devoted to my work, sung by a cathedral choir, is currently underway, which suggests there is in some quarters an appetite for learning new repertoire. Quite often I think it's the newness of a piece that puts people off, rather than it's actual difficulty - a lot of conductors are happy to programme a Bach motet (among the hardest choral music ever written, of course) whereas they shy away from contemporary pieces that are not anything like as hard. [/QUOTE]

I'm sure that a lot of DoMs would like to programme radical stuff, but if the demands are too high, they know it will ease out rehearsal time for the everyday. While the 'older generation' material may be very familiar, even 'war horses' to US, it ought to be remembered that to most of the kids singing top lines it is brand new, such that they are learning new material most days of most terms in their choir! DoMs have to remember that all the time.

But because everything is new to the trebles there is no conceptual difference for them in learning a Byrd Mass or a Mass by Jonathan Dove. In my experience it is sometimes the actual limitations of the men, or the limitations imposed on them by rehearsal time, that prevents Directors of Music doing certain new repertoire.

There is also, I think, a mutual ignorance sometimes bordering on suspicion, between many cathedral musicians and many composers. Composers, unless they have been brought up in a liturgical singing culture (or are drawn to sacred music because of their religious beliefs), do not understand the limitations lack of rehearsal time imposes, nor, on the other hand, the outstanding results that liturgical choirs can, and do, produce day-in day-out. And there are also some Directors of Music who don't really know and/or don't care to find out what is going on in the wider contemporary music world. People like Jonathan Dove, James MacMillan, John Tavener, Jonathan Harvey, Judith Weir, Judith Bingham, Howard Skempton and myself are proof that is possible to write practical liturgical music that people also want to sing, and listen to. I wish there were more of us - composers who are not specialists in choral music need to be invited and encouraged to write for the church. In the 16th century the best composers of the day were writing liturgical music. It is a great shame that many of the best composers of our day do not, for a variety of reasons.

[David Underdown]

In my view, new music has to be part of the liturgical diet, or we are saying it's a dead form. However "new" old works maybe to choristers they can see from the parts that it's been sung many times before

Religion, and religious music, shouldn't be like a comfortable pair of socks, it has also to challenge us, and make us think anew

[DracoM]

Yes, I agree with most of what you both say about new music. I just come back to sheer practical and very dull question of the available rehearsal time for many cathedrals, not just the kids of course. Psalm singing - can be a quicksand as we all know from daily / weekly hearing. Would be interesting to know what proportion of available rehearsal slot a choir actually spends on psalm disciplines.

Most composers now do have a sense of what is feasible and the names bounced around upthread by all of us are usually hard-nosed practical practitioners who know the scene and what is encompassable within it, work to commissions anyway, and thus have to communicate with DoMs to mutual advantage.

BTW, early in the September term, I bet most DoMs are still trying to come to terms with what the choir sounds like given summer leaves, unanticipated summer voice breaks, whether newly promoted probationers are up to it, such that programming conservative repertoire is probably a savvy playing safe option. Problem for all DoMs is that they have to programme usually at the very least a whole term ahead and many the whole year. But suppose the new trebles can't cope? Ahem. How will that shiny new commission set up two years ago now seem as a challenge? In live performance? I am always staggered by the way choirs shape up over a whole term.

Incidentally, I know one choir that has indeed just done Singet den Herrn early in their term and broadcast it via live webcast to the world. Bold choice, and they guys really reached up for it.

[Gabriel Jackson]

BTW, early in the September term, I bet most DoMs are still trying to come to terms with what the choir sounds like given summer leaves, unanticipated summer voice breaks, whether newly promoted probationers are up to it, such that programming conservative repertoire is probably a savvy playing safe option.

Well...the choir of St Mary's Cathedral, Edinburgh were recording a new CD earlier this month, and in the first three sessions were VERY good!

[DracoM]

GJ, you must really look forward to my postings! So many chances to shoot things down.

And perhaps you could tell us if the choir of St Mary's Cathedral, Edinburgh has girls as well as boys thus minimising the DoM angst over breaking voices / continuity etc?

[mangerton]

GJ, you must really look forward to my postings! So many chances to shoot things down.

And perhaps you could tell us if the choir of St Mary's Cathedral, Edinburgh has girls as well as boys thus minimising the DoM angst over breaking voices / continuity etc?

DracoM, yes they do. The Cathedral has a music school attached.....

http://www.st-marys-music-school.co.uk/

With reference to the comments above, how much time do cathedral choirs spend rehearsing, separately and together?

[DracoM]

Actually, I did know about St M's Edinburgh and their girls.

[cantenor2]

Quot homines, quot sententiae, surely.

"quot homines, tot sententiae" perhaps!!

[Gabriel Jackson]

GJ, you must really look forward to my postings! So many chances to shoot things down.

I was merely pointing out an instance of a choir that is happy, and well able, to undertake a recording of new repertoire at the beginning of the academic year.

And perhaps you could tell us if the choir of St Mary's Cathedral, Edinburgh has girls as well as boys thus minimising the DoM angst over breaking voices / continuity etc?

Since you know the answer to this question, you will also know that, while girls' voices don't break, girls also leave the choir, their places taken up by new girls, just as boys do.

[Y Mab Afradlon]

It happens in all choirs ... the thing that keeps us on our toes. The successful choirs overcome this, teh unsuccessful probably don't broadcast.

[Finzi4ever]

"quot homines, tot sententiae" perhaps!!

In the words of the late Robert Robinson: "Ah me, those correlatives get them every time!"

[ardcarp]

Excreta tauri cerebellum vincit.

[decantor]

Excreta tauri cerebellum vincit.

Or, in the spirit of correlativity: Quanto excrementum tauri crescit, tanto cerebellum deminuitur.