CE St Matthew's Church, Northampton 21st Sept 2011

[cantenor2]

The Leighton irritated, the Walton grated and the Britten chafed…
Sorry!

[DracoM]

So nothing positive to commend in it?

[cantenor2]

Technically the choir were up to it, but such an unfortunate choice of music for CE I thought. Of course this is just my opinion. I can't imagine many CE followers, if they are honest with themselves, really enjoyed Walton. Walton is much better than this: perhaps it was something he had lying around just waiting for an easy commision!!

[ardcarp]

I can't imagine many CE followers, if they are honest with themselves, really enjoyed Walton.

I did. And what was 'unfortunate' about the rest? We don't want to drown in Stanford and Sumsion every week.

[cantenor2]

What is 'unfortunate' is that we seem to have lost the raison d'etre of CE as it was intended. Music in our cathedrals and collegiates is to enable the congregation (not audience as in concert) to worship with their ears. I personally cannot see how anyone can be uplifted spritually by some of what we hear. Too many places seem to think CE is an opportunity to demonstrate technical prowess in a recital rather than use music to compliment an act of worship. You mention Stanford and Sumsion - my cup of tea would be something that a caries 'tune' possibly Bairstow, Naylor, Howells, Byrd, Holst,Tallis to mention just a few.

[ardcarp]

There used to be a view...now long extinct, I think....that only certain sorts of music are a suitable vehicle for worship. Just a little thought is needed to unpick this. Of course there is personal preference. Fine, but one has to accept that these preferences come with a lot of institutional and cultural baggage. Then there is what might loosely be called 'fashion', which changes imperceptibly as the decades slip past.

I'm not trying to be holier-than-thou. I have my own prejudices and I'm only consoled by the fact that they were a lot stronger and more unreasoned when I was younger. Stainer, Maunder, Somervell....yuk. No, not yuk. Their outpourings were rightly loved in their time and should be respected and sometimes heard along with a lot of other stuff [Croft verse anthems?] which are not currently modish.

As a final thought, it is a terrible trap for a cathedral/collegiate choir to get stuck in a rut. The good ones generally, whilst having their core repertory, do bring in fresh material and experiment with service lists. Nothing from St Matthews was particularly revolutionary. Indeed I sang all of it 50 years ago! I have to confess that my own love of sacred music is not informed by any strong religious faith. But if it were, I would be quite ecstatic at the way Walton's Magnificat expressed the joy and exhilaration of The Virgin Mary at being chosen to bear the Son of God.

[Simon]

Well, there's room for most music as long as it's good. I'm on cantenor's side as regards this particular service, as his views reflect mine as mentioned earlier. But that's as much personal preference as anything: I think the Walton Mag is naff and I can't abide much of Leighton.

I also agree with the more general point that some places swing more towards a concert than a service and IMO that's a shame when it happens.

I don't think I know of any cathedral choir that is "in a rut" though clearly I don't check on the service lists of every choir every day! I doubt many do wall to wall Stanford. Which would even be too much for me after a while. (A decade or so).

Yes, I jest. But seriously, is Stanford in A just sublime or what?

And how about this, for those who may not have caught the link last year? Bet not many of us have sung it to an orchestra!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsbWHMfQXzE

bws to all

S-S!

[AscribeUntoTheLad]

Yes, I jest. But seriously, is Stanford in A just sublime or what?

S-S!

I think 'sublime' is probably going much too far....

And I can't understand why no-one seems to like the Walton. It's one of my favourites.

[decantor]

(1) What is 'unfortunate' is that we seem to have lost the raison d'etre of CE as it was intended. Music in our cathedrals and collegiates is to enable the congregation (not audience as in concert) to worship with their ears.
(2) I personally cannot see how anyone can be uplifted spritually by some of what we hear.
(3) Too many places seem to think CE is an opportunity to demonstrate technical prowess in a recital rather than use music to compliment an act of worship.
(4) You mention Stanford and Sumsion - my cup of tea would be something that a caries 'tune' possibly Bairstow, Naylor, Howells, Byrd, Holst,Tallis to mention just a few.

(1) No. The raison d'etre of CE is to ensure that God's praises are sung daily - the Opus Dei. If, as a spin-off, the congregation (if any - it's irrelevant) can worship with their ears, so much the better. The question of 'concert' does not arise, as the music will be sung anyway, and there will be no applause; but in any case all decent music is designed to inform and uplift, even in a concert.

(2) This tells us only that you "cannot see", not that you are right. I hugely appreciated the music list in this service (a Hussey tribute, not a random collection), even if it was somewhat conservative. I personally regard it as desirable that liturgical music should present a challenge, a stimulus to thought, a fresh approach. The older masters (Tallis to Stanford, say) provided valuable insights, but would not claim for themselves the last word. We must keep re-interpreting if we are not to be a passive and forgotten generation. I am thrilled that we have the composers (Tippett, Macmillan, Harvey, as well as Howells, Leighton, et al.) and the liturgical choirs who can perform their works to full effect. To decry the contemporary repertoire is to consign cathedral music to the museum.

(3) If my mind is to be stretched by the liturgy, as it should be, then I can see no objection to the choir being stretched too - their mediation between me and God is not a mere formality. I want the choir to test themselves: if they do not, their music becomes a stale mantra, and their efforts become perfunctory. Even plainsong deserves (and usually receives) their very best attention. Their technical accomplishment is, in this context, a credit to all mankind (and, one hopes, a delight to God). Why on earth should we be apologetic that they regularly achieve concert standards in difficult repertoire? We should worry more if they did not.

(4) We can all design services to our own taste. But I consider it crucially important that the repertoire is constantly extended into the latest idioms so as to catch the spirit of the age in our offerings to the Almighty. While I appreciate the balm and joy in the music of previous ages, there must also be a place - a big place - for the contemporary language of questioning anguish amid the spiritual exaltation: today, belief in God is itself often ridiculed, and I look for musical settings that acknowledge that contentiousness and seek to resolve it somehow - and that requires more nuance than nice tunes and tonic-dominant harmonies. I see no value - musically or religiously - in endlessly settling back into our comfort zones.

I apologise for this long rant, but I was horrified by the negatively conservative implications of cantenor2's posts. If sacred music lives only in its glorious past, it will die.

[ardcarp]

decantor

You've put it all so much more eloquently than I could hope to.

[Simon]

Eloquent, for sure - it's always a pleasure to read decantor's posts. But it's only one view, part of which, at least, will not be accepted by everyone.

[cantenor2]

Decantor, a ‘rant’ does us all good from time to time, but it doesn’t make you right!

Of course, those choral foundations of such high repute to which you allude must find and perform new challenges, but why do many amongst the 3 million or so CE listeners have to suffer while they do it? Let these places perform their concerts, give their recitals and experiment with new challenges, but do it in house rather than force Radio 3 CE listeners to experience such self indulgences and thus have many switch off. A number of contemporary composers also offer ‘balm and joy’ in their compositions (Dove for one) but conversely many do not. As I have said before (IMO) Radio 3 CE is not the appropriate medium for concerts and recitals nor is it an appropriate medium to demonstate technical prowess or performance ‘snobbery’.

We will have to agree to disagree...

Thank you ‘Simon’ for your support.

[ardcarp]

I am worried about the word 'concert' being bandied about as if it constituted one of the Seven Deadly Sins. Anyway, CE clearly isn't a concert whatever music is being sung...I hesitate to use the word 'performed' in case that might also imply moral laxity. As decantor rightly points out, the particular form of worship which, for want of a better description might be called Cathedral Evensong, consists of a choir singing the liturgy AMDG on behalf of attendees who are not 'an audience' and who do not clap. It is not as if mankind were deprived of having a go and joining in. There is a whole spectrum of worship styles out there. You can turn up with your tambourine, speak in tongues, fall about in a dead faint, do pretty much anything in fact. Now if you did turn up to a broadcast CE and try any of the above you'd be the first to complain about yourself, wouldn't you?

Just realised I can rant too...and I think I've wandered a bit off topic.

[Magnificat]

[QUOTE=ardcarp;86969As decantor rightly points out, the particular form of worship which, for want of a better description might be called Cathedral Evensong, consists of a choir singing the liturgy AMDG on behalf of attendees who are not 'an audience' and who do not clap. .[/QUOTE]

ardcarp

I was at an evensong in St Albans Abbey when BR was in charge and remember a young lady sitting in front of me bursting into applause after the anthem - Zadok The Priest I think it was - much to the embarrassment of her husband/partner who tried frantically to hush her up. The Lay Clerks, boys and clergy found it all very amusing. I should imagine Barry was quite pleased.

VCC

[Vile Consort]

The key word in Cantenor2's post is "personally". What (indeed, all) he is saying is that some of the music he hears at CE isn't to his taste.

Quot homines, quot sententiae, surely.

I wonder if he can explain on what basis he thinks all the music should be to his taste.