Tenebrae ... Bach to MacMillan

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Very oddly, tonight BBC4 is repeating a St John Passion Prom (from 2008?) I personally find it strange to be programming Passiontide music after Easter Sunday! Anyway, it's better than an evening of pop.

I’m watching it now. Superb!

[ardcarp]

Yes, a very slick performance..and what a superb Evangelist Mark Padmore is. There was no interruption to the flow of the biblical narrative, even if I found some of the tempi a bit on the brisk side. I gather it's Jegger's 80th year, so maybe that was the reason for showing it in the 'wrong' ecclesiastical season. Maybe I shouldn't say this, but I sang frequently with a tenor, a lovely man, who'd been a Choral Scholar at John's and then one of the first members of the Monteverdi Choir. (He has just recently died, and many of us sang at his funeral.) He couldn't stand JEG!

[jonfan]

He couldn't stand JEG!

Very sorry to hear of the loss of your friend Mr A, but his view has been expressed by many others who have worked for JEG in the past. A director of a leading professional choral group in the UK expressed some choice words on the matter in Private Eye some while ago. Tom Service, no less, got JEG to admit he’d been less than pleasant with colleagues in the past on Music Matters last night so perhaps he’s slightly reformed.
I personally can’t stand performances he directs as IMO the composers are at the service of JEG.

[ardcarp]

I personally can’t stand performances he directs as IMO the composers are at the service of JEG.

I'm glad I'm not the only one! However the St John which was retrieved from the BBC dustbin (sorry, archive) was characterised by some very good singing and playing. Whilst I'm not trying to promote Classical or Romantic rubato in Bach performance, there is room for subtleties of phrasing in the St John, and I felt some tempi were on the quick side, the overall effect being at times somewhat driven and 'mechanical'. The opening chorus exemplified that, and I have a 'thing ' about the final chorus, Ruht Wohl, which is surely a wish that the dead should rest in peace, wonderful if taken at a more restful pace. Especially as its opening motif recurs throughout.

[mopsus]

I and at least one friend auditioned (unsuccessfully) for JEG in the days when he still included amateur singers in his choir. I have never felt very happy with his interpretations and find his B Minor Mass recording totally infuriating because there seems to be no direction to any of the individual movements. Others however, love it and I have to admit he had real luxury casting in his line-up of singers.

Back to Tenebrae - I had a ticket to hear them when they were due to come and sing here, but they didn't come because of a very severe storm which was forecast, and happened, on the day they were due to travel and perform. I'd have gladly put up a singer who'd travelled the day before, as would others, if it meant the concert could have gone ahead. I hope one day they will plan another here.

[jonfan]

I would suggest having a listen to Suzuki's latest recordings of the two Passions where he's allowed more subtleties of phrasing and dynamics than his previous recordings. The St John was made under very tight time constraints in Cologne just before everything stopped in 2020, somehow giving the whole an additional poignancy. [There is a YouTube performance done in an empty hall before the sound recordings were made]. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKYscw-nN8U
There could be an Evangelist showdown: Padmore or Gilchrist - a hard one to call.

[ardcarp]

Whilst the St John is under discussion, the numerous times I've sung it in recent years has been in German, and (although I couldn't order fish and chips in the German tongue) I reckon I can almost sing it from memory. I certainly don't have to be glued to the score. However the last performance (in March this year) was using the 'new' Novello English edition, which is IMHO horrible. I remember the old Novello edition from my youth when it was usually done in English, and the old translation (was it Troutbeck?) had a certain poetry about it, e.g. 'He gave up the Ghost' as opposed to 'And he was gone' or some such thing.

In the same vein, I sang in a 'new' Novello English edition of the St Matthew on the Isle of Wight. (I did the arias too.) That was even more awful. I wrote a letter to Novello headed 'Dear Editor' passing on the general disgruntlement of the choir. The 'Dear Editor' turned out to be an old University friend. Very embarrassing. He did his best to justify the new translation, which I believe involved a tenor...was it Neil Jenkins?

Anyway, it struck me that the best way for people to hear any of Bach's oratorical works is, as on the recent TV St John, by the use of sub-titles. That could surely be done for a live performance with a bit of ingenuity?

[jonfan]

There’s a letter in the Radio Times for next week making this very point about subtitles, there were none for the King's and Tenebrae broadcasts. At the Tenebrae concert in Leeds the programme with pieces about the music and artist biographies could be downloaded free before the event and the translation, or text, of what was being sung was displayed on screens either side of the stage at the concert. Easy and environmentally friendly as well.
The old Novello St Matthew edition was edited by Elgar and Atkins and the St John by Atkins alone.I thought they were generally quite faithful and poetic for they had people like Robert Bridges working on the chorales, but where they came badly unstuck was trying to fit Bach’s recitatives to the KJV.

[Master Jacques]

There’s a letter in the Radio Times for next week making this very point about subtitles, there were none for the King's and Tenebrae broadcasts. At the Tenebrae concert in Leeds the programme with pieces about the music and artist biographies could be downloaded free before the event and the translation, or text, of what was being sung was displayed on screens either side of the stage at the concert. Easy and environmentally friendly as well.
The old Novello St Matthew edition was edited by Elgar and Atkins and the St John by Atkins alone.I thought they were generally quite faithful and poetic for they had people like Robert Bridges working on the chorales, but where they came badly unstuck was trying to fit Bach’s recitatives to the KJV.

I don't know about "unstuck". Where Elgar/Atkins carefully altered Bach's phrases in the recits. to fit the King James, the results were often memorable as well as musical. I fear we live in an age where fidelity to the musical text - even in recitatives - trumps everything else, whether it be communicability, poetry or common sense. Surtitles (or subtitles) put a wall between us and the experience, which a good English translation never does.

Interested to read Ardcarp's salutary experience with the New English Version!

[mopsus]

Whilst the St John is under discussion, the numerous times I've sung it in recent years has been in German, and (although I couldn't order fish and chips in the German tongue) I reckon I can almost sing it from memory. I certainly don't have to be glued to the score. However the last performance (in March this year) was using the 'new' Novello English edition, which is IMHO horrible. I remember the old Novello edition from my youth when it was usually done in English, and the old translation (was it Troutbeck?) had a certain poetry about it, e.g. 'He gave up the Ghost' as opposed to 'And he was gone' or some such thing.

In the same vein, I sang in a 'new' Novello English edition of the St Matthew on the Isle of Wight. (I did the arias too.) That was even more awful. I wrote a letter to Novello headed 'Dear Editor' passing on the general disgruntlement of the choir. ...

When I sang the St John in English a few years ago we spent a lot of the limited rehearsal time changing the text, and this was presumably why.

I do wonder why some works were recently re-translated. Last year I went to a performance of The Seasons in English, in a recent version by Paul McCreesh, which nevertheless contained some startling archaisms. 'Ye mincing dandies, stay away!' is one line that sticks in my mind.

[jonfan]

The repeated exclamations of Herr in the first chorus of the St John seems easy to translate as Lord but Neil Jenkins has Hail and Pears/Britten has Sire which sounds like ‘sah’ on their recording.
There’s a lot of fun in Haydn and Handel’s English. On mighty pens from Creation seems to be praising novelists! Handel has ‘Sur-e-ly’ and ‘in-cor-rup-ti-ble’ from Messiah, the latter David Thomas relishes singing on his recordings.

[ardcarp]

The repeated exclamations of Herr in the first chorus of the St John seems easy to translate as Lord but Neil Jenkins has Hail

That was the exact criticism (the first of many) the choir made a few weeks ago, The meaning of Herr and Hail are(obviously) completely different, and above all inappropriate for the sombreness of Passiontide. I also agree about the retention of some older English usage...either it's a modern translation or it's not.

Well Haydn's use of English (or mal-use) has been with us for ever, eg 'The wonder of his works displays the firmament'. Wasn't it Baron somebody who supplied the English text for Haydn? Forgive my forgetfulness.

PS It came to me during supper....Baron Van Swieten, of whom Wiki says '[he] was evidently not a fully fluent speaker of English'. Ho ho.

[ardcarp]

As somebody who had to sing Bach much in my youth, like most of my fellow choristers I never found him very inspiring - impressive of course compositionally, but so challenging as a technical exercise as to leave little room for anything much else. He doesn't write kindly for the human voice: the man didn't seem to understand that singers have to breathe occasionally. Bach cantatas are perhaps less fun to sing, than to listen to.

Personally, if I'm after "human feeling" I'll choose Handel over JSB every time.

I'll start off by saying that I am in no way criticising your posts, Master Jacques, or your views about JSB. However the correspondence in this thread has been running round in my head for some days now. Hence the following:

I went to The Feast of Bach concert in Exeter Cathedral tonight. It was the first of two consecutive concerts (Friday and Saturday) featuring solo violin Partitas played by Rachel Podger...surely at the top of her tree and her game. Totally mesmerising. I tried to think of some ways of putting into words Bach's almost supernatural gift.

1. They could only have been composed by someone with a thorough knowledge of violin technique, hence the extraordinary use of double stopping and much string-crossing, not to mention rapid passagework. I should add, he extends the technique too, as most violinists know only too well.
2. The implied harmony is there all the time, on a solo instrument. (As an undergraduate, one exercise was to write a figured bass as if to accompany a movement from a partita, It was all perfectly obvious.)
3. Bach's use of harmonic structure and the easy progress through related keys is not only amazing, but indicates an overall concept of the direction of the piece he is writing.
4. His use of dissonance is extraordinary, the resolutions often being delayed or even implied.
5. In addition to the above, where does the inspiration come from? We think of a be-wigged old man scribbling away at his desk...but could anyone with all the knowledge of technique that Bach had, maybe more, be able to write a pastiche which came anywhere near?
6. In the same vein, could any such person, writing in whatever style, elicit the same emotional response? The cathedral was packed but the audience was so silent, you could have heard a pin drop.

And then the concert included unaccompanied motets sung by the up-and-coming young group Corvus, directed by Freddie Crowley. (Get the connection? ) I know these pieces inside out, and whilst at times the act of singing may be demanding, I have to disagree that Bach didn't 'understand' voices. Yes, his vocal lines may sometimes be 'instrumental' in their configuration, difficult even, but think of Komm Jesu Komm? Could anyone with no intimate knowledge of singing possibly write that? Fabulous to sing as well as to listen to.

I think I've got that off my chest. Apologies where necessary. (I won't get started on his keyboard music.)

[DracoM]

[jonfan]

Absolutely brilliant summery Mr A. What also comes across is that nothing compares to being present at live music making.
JSB was a practical musician and there would be no point writing music no one could manage to perform. It can be done as today’s musicians demonstrate, but you have to be at the top of your game.
The late James Bowman said, when discussing performing Bach and Handel, if you lose your place when singing Handel you can quite easily recover, but with Bach the chance is much less likely.