Tenebrae ... Bach to MacMillan

[DracoM]

[ardcarp]

as to why Bach became sainted in the 20th century

I think sanctification came a little sooner than that...Mendelssohn? However, chac'un, etc, Those who play or sing Bach are genuinely in awe of his incredible and mind-blowingly original technique which are not just 'mechanical' (as some admittedly say) but which also plumb the depths of every human feeling. In the past, I have warned A-level students not to harmonise their Bach Chorales quite as daringly as Bach sometimes did for fear of a rogue examiner!

[CallMePaul]

I wanted to watch this but Antiques Roadshow is non-negotiable with my partner. Is it worth persuading her to watch (with me) on iPlayer?

[Master Jacques]

I think sanctification came a little sooner than that...Mendelssohn? However, chac'un, etc, Those who play or sing Bach are genuinely in awe of his incredible and mind-blowingly original technique which are not just 'mechanical' (as some admittedly say) but which also plumb the depths of every human feeling. In the past, I have warned A-level students not to harmonise their Bach Chorales quite as daringly as Bach sometimes did for fear of a rogue examiner!

Wasn't Mendelssohn's alleged "rediscovery" part of a pan-Germanic movement, keen to elevate Bach above the 'cosmopolitan' Handel, as much English and Italian as German, and worshipped to the point of idolatry by Mozart and Beethoven.

Not everyone would agree about being "in awe" of Bach's technique. As somebody who had to sing Bach much in my youth, like most of my fellow choristers I never found him very inspiring - impressive of course compositionally, but so challenging as a technical exercise as to leave little room for anything much else. He doesn't write kindly for the human voice: the man didn't seem to understand that singers have to breathe occasionally. Bach cantatas are perhaps less fun to sing, than to listen to.

Personally, if I'm after "human feeling" I'll choose Handel over JSB every time. He is the fire-stealing Titan who challenges the socially constructed God called Bach. So I feel that your advice to A-level students was exceedingly wise!

[ardcarp]

I wouldn't like to have to choose either Handel or Bach. I want both! Yes, Bach is sometimes challenging to sing (especially if you're a tenor) but I wonder if any on the forum would care to put into words Bach's magnificence?

[jonfan]

Carl Sagan summed up Bach’s greatness succinctly when it was suggested putting some Bach on a Voyager spacecraft for other beings to get a flavour of life on Earth -“We don’t want to show off.”

[Ein Heldenleben]

I wouldn't like to have to choose either Handel or Bach. I want both! Yes, Bach is sometimes challenging to sing (especially if you're a tenor) but I wonder if any on the forum would care to put into words Bach's magnificence?

I don’t like the religiose veneration that surrounds Bach. When Bernard Williams the philosopher said that he was the only composer that was simply “necessary” I couldn’t see why he was any more so than Beethoven or Mozart. I honestly don’t think I could sit through a performance of the Matthew Passion again though it has some wonderful music in it. I much prefer the B minor mass which is a kind of Bach greatest choral hits album isn’t it?
For me the essence of Bach and his genius are his keyboard works esp the 48 which are so harmonically daring they take your breath away. Ditto the Brandenburgs , the suites esp the works for solo violon and cello. I suppose it’s the quantity ,range and overall quality of his music that marks him out. I literally don’t know how he found time to eat.
Finally from a visual point of view his manuscripts are pretty much pictorial masterpieces as well.

[RichardB]

When Bach's standout achievements are being enumerated, his church cantatas are hardly ever mentioned. Perhaps (like the Passions) they are too specifically tied to a particular time, place and (especially) religious outlook to have the wider appeal of his instrumental music or the Mass in B minor. On the other hand I think there's a case for saying that his Lutheran music is at the very heart of his work, a point that JEG makes more authoritatively than I could in his book on Bach's music. For me there's a particular kind of profundity to the way that they confront existential matters through music that makes them a unique testament, relevant to all times and places (leaving aside the occasional hyper-Lutheran railing against "the murderous Pope and the Turks" and so forth). The very idea that music can engage deeply with this kind of thing seems to have been almost unknown in Bach's time and not particularly common in any other time.

[Master Jacques]

When Bach's standout achievements are being enumerated, his church cantatas are hardly ever mentioned. Perhaps (like the Passions) they are too specifically tied to a particular time, place and (especially) religious outlook to have the wider appeal of his instrumental music or the Mass in B minor. On the other hand I think there's a case for saying that his Lutheran music is at the very heart of his work, a point that JEG makes more authoritatively than I could in his book on Bach's music. For me there's a particular kind of profundity to the way that they confront existential matters through music that makes them a unique testament, relevant to all times and places (leaving aside the occasional hyper-Lutheran railing against "the murderous Pope and the Turks" and so forth). The very idea that music can engage deeply with this kind of thing seems to have been almost unknown in Bach's time and not particularly common in any other time.

Beautifully put: "confronting existential matters through music" is I suppose the reason I tend to come back to the cantatas, rather than the instrumental works, on those occasions where I feel the need to play fair by JSB!

What I miss is Handel's dramatic impetus - Bach's cantatas are essentially philosophical meditations, even 'anti-dramas'. Handel has no peers and few equals in enlightenment humanist drama, which equally provides an extra dimension to music.

[Padraig]

. . . his church cantatas . . For me there's a particular kind of profundity to the way that they confront existential matters through music that makes them a unique testament, relevant to all times and places (leaving aside the occasional hyper-Lutheran railing against "the murderous Pope and the Turks" and so forth). The very idea that music can engage deeply with this kind of thing seems to have been almost unknown in Bach's time and not particularly common in any other time.

I probably would not have expressed this view in your words, Richard, but your meaning is similar to my own feelings about the Bach cantatas. Perhaps I came to an understanding of what some of the cantatas meant to me when I reacted to a frequent descriptive complaint - 'that oul Protestant music'. I felt there were deeply held feelings in this music which got to me before I ever read a translation. Even when he was rattling on about hopeless man and human failings I forgave him! I knew what he meant. I always hope to get a cantata on a Friday.

[jonfan]

11 members of Tenebrae made the journey to far flung Leeds to sing their programme last night, dropping some singers on the way and abandoning the two continuo players. A great concert nevertheless where for me the MacMillan items were the emotional core of the experience.

[ardcarp]

Very oddly, tonight BBC4 is repeating a St John Passion Prom (from 2008?) I personally find it strange to be programming Passiontide music after Easter Sunday! Anyway, it's better than an evening of pop.

[DracoM]

Weird, yes totally agree. ????????????????????????

[Bryn]

Very oddly, tonight BBC4 is repeating a St John Passion Prom (from 2008?) I personally find it strange to be programming Passiontide music after Easter Sunday! Anyway, it's better than an evening of pop.

With Easter being a moveable feast originally purloined from pre-Christian celebrations of the spring equinox, I find nothing surprising about it being played at any time of year. There again, I approach it as music, rather than for its theistic notions.

[vinteuil]

.

.. and this 'concert' was a recording from a Prom, which by any reckoning comes after the easter of the year in question. You could consider this broadcast
performance to be 'prior to' easter 2024. But further - were there to be a God, she/he/it/they would presumably exist in an eternal present where chronological time is irrelevant...


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