CE: St Paul’s Church, Knightsbridge, London 15.ii.23

[ardcarp]

A former Dean of ours once asked, from the pulpit, members of the congregation not to applaud the organist after the closing voluntary. Unfortunately, it has become the norm.

Yes, even though I'm an organist of sorts, I also find the current trend of applauding a final voluntary er...well...inappropriate.
Strange how customs change. Not so very long ago it was quite normal for anyone in the congregation who wanted to leave to just do so during the voluntary.

[Peanut]

https://twitter.com/BBCSingers/statu...799619/photo/3
A link to a picture taken after the service, receiving due applause.

Good to see the choir for this 'act of worship' weren't remotely a visual distraction, and allowed the 'congregation' an unencumbered view of Bodley's rererdos in the heavenly space beyond the rood screen.... oh, wait...

[Vox Humana]

Good to see the choir for this 'act of worship' weren't remotely a visual distraction, and allowed the 'congregation' an unencumbered view of Bodley's rererdos in the heavenly space beyond the rood screen.... oh, wait...

I was hoping that the photo was just a final curtain call, but the conductor's podium and the music stands do imply that they actually gave the concert from this position. Had I been present I doubt that I would have been able to treat it the event as anything else.

[jonfan]

I was hoping that the photo was just a final curtain call, but the conductor's podium and the music stands do imply that they actually gave the concert from this position. Had I been present I doubt that I would have been able to treat it the event as anything else.

Are you saying every conductor of a church choir, and other musicians, that use a music stand are officiating at a concert not an act of worship?

[cat]

Not so very long ago it was quite normal for anyone in the congregation who wanted to leave to just do so during the voluntary.

Isn't that still normal? I don't like to file out in silence so try to time it so I'm walking out of the doors as the final few bars are played. Unless I'm in a hurry to be elsewhere in which case I leave as soon as is reasonable without risking barging past the choir on my way out. Generally I find some people ahead of me and some staying to the end.

[mopsus]

At quite a lot of places that broadcast CE, the choir are not in their stalls for broadcast services, but arranged somewhere else so that the microphones pick up a more balanced sound with the right amount of reverb.

[Vox Humana]

Are you saying every conductor of a church choir, and other musicians, that use a music stand are officiating at a concert not an act of worship?

No. I'm simply doubting that the conductor and choir carried the podium and stands out with them for a curtain call.

[jonfan]

No. I'm simply doubting that the conductor and choir carried the podium and stands out with them for a curtain call.

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean.

[Barry Rose]

I've banged on about this before, so I hope readers won't throw up their hands and say "oh no, not again" !
As editor (and often producer) of the programme for nearly 20 years, I was at the BBC in times of change (1971-1990) - i.e. the move from Radio 4 to Radio 3, the introduction of recorded Services (either the day before or the day after the live transmission) and transmitted on a later Friday afternoon, and, probably most important of all, the decision to lengthen the programme from 45 minutes to an hour, specifically in order to accommodate the psalms for the day from the Book of Common Prayer, AND the complete organ voluntary - until then, usually faded out, though in my editiorial view, that, and the organ playing as the broadcast began, was very much as a worshipper might hear it when arriving at or leaving a Cathedral or Collegiate Chapel. I shoulkd add that the idea of broadcasting the complete organ voluntary was meant to placate irate listeners who had lost regular organ recitals on Radio 3.
These days, the whole ethos has changed, and Choral Evensong has become a broadcast 'occasion' (as this one was), rather than as it used to be - eavesdropping on a Service taking place, though, to be fair, most Cathedrals had a silent day on Wednesday, so a broadcast was always a specially sung Service. But at least it was sung by a choir that had Evensong in their blood, so to speak.
There will be those (including me) who will have missed hearing the 15th Evening psalm (all 73 verses of it) in this broadcast, and also in the one that is coming up on 15th March, though you can find a superbly sung version nof Psalm 78 from this last Wednesday on the website of St.Thomas Church, New York - well worth a listen and a look.
In this Service from Knightsbridge, perhaps the 'modern' and new psalm chants drew us away from listening to the text, in which the BBC Singers diction was first-class. Elsewhere, and it may have been the radio on which we were listening, the choral balance seemed to be a bit too open and distant to pick up any uinfamiliar text.
I think, but could be wrong, that Grayston Ives added the brass parts to 'Hear my Words' at the request of Westminster Abbey, who were about to record the piece. The brass certainly added some extra grandeur, even if I felt that the long organ introduction sounded somewhat lacking in that department.
The spoken parts of the Service were suitably dignified and it was good to have some lusty congregational singing in the last hymn.
Well, we will have a suitable start to Lent next week. We're back at St.John's College, Cambridge for the live Ash Wednesday brodacast - the first big decision over venue that I made as editor, way back in 1972. Lomg may it continue to be broadcast from there.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Yes, even though I'm an organist of sorts, I also find the current trend of applauding a final voluntary er...well...inappropriate.
Strange how customs change. Not so very long ago it was quite normal for anyone in the congregation who wanted to leave to just do so during the voluntary.

The decision to leave or listen is determined by a complex formula involving : transport arrangements esp potential parking fines , subsequent social engagements, the skill of the organist, the tuning of the organ, the temperature of the church and last but not least the piece of music being played.
The first is a particular consideration in Cathedral cities esp Norwich.

[ardcarp]

I've banged on about this before, so I hope readers won't throw up their hands and say "oh no, not again" !
As editor (and often producer) of the programme for nearly 20 years, I was at the BBC in times of change (1971-1990) - i.e. the move from Radio 4 to Radio 3, the introduction of recorded Services (either the day before or the day after the live transmission) and transmitted on a later Friday afternoon, and, probably most important of all, the decision to lengthen the programme from 45 minutes to an hour, specifically in order to accommodate the psalms for the day from the Book of Common Prayer, AND the complete organ voluntary - until then, usually faded out, though in my editiorial view, that, and the organ playing as the broadcast began, was very much as a worshipper might hear it when arriving at or leaving a Cathedral or Collegiate Chapel. I shoulkd add that the idea of broadcasting the complete organ voluntary was meant to placate irate listeners who had lost regular organ recitals on Radio 3.
These days, the whole ethos has changed, and Choral Evensong has become a broadcast 'occasion' (as this one was), rather than as it used to be - eavesdropping on a Service taking place, though, to be fair, most Cathedrals had a silent day on Wednesday, so a broadcast was always a specially sung Service. But at least it was sung by a choir that had Evensong in their blood, so to speak.
There will be those (including me) who will have missed hearing the 15th Evening psalm (all 73 verses of it) in this broadcast, and also in the one that is coming up on 15th March, though you can find a superbly sung version nof Psalm 78 from this last Wednesday on the website of St.Thomas Church, New York - well worth a listen and a look.
In this Service from Knightsbridge, perhaps the 'modern' and new psalm chants drew us away from listening to the text, in which the BBC Singers diction was first-class. Elsewhere, and it may have been the radio on which we were listening, the choral balance seemed to be a bit too open and distant to pick up any uinfamiliar text.
I think, but could be wrong, that Grayston Ives added the brass parts to 'Hear my Words' at the request of Westminster Abbey, who were about to record the piece. The brass certainly added some extra grandeur, even if I felt that the long organ introduction sounded somewhat lacking in that department.
The spoken parts of the Service were suitably dignified and it was good to have some lusty congregational singing in the last hymn.
Well, we will have a suitable start to Lent next week. We're back at St.John's College, Cambridge for the live Ash Wednesday brodacast - the first big decision over venue that I made as editor, way back in 1972. Lomg may it continue to be broadcast from there.

Thanks for that, Barry. I think most Choir forumistas will agree with your synopsis.

[mw963]

But at least it was sung by a choir that had Evensong in their blood, so to speak..

In a remarkable economy of wording you have summed up for me everything that is wrong with the BBC's current approach to CE. Thank you Barry, it's always a privilege to hear your views.

[Alison]

Must admit I was expecting the performance aspect of CE to be more than usually apparent this week but my listening experience was otherwise.

[jonfan]

In a remarkable economy of wording you have summed up for me everything that is wrong with the BBC's current approach to CE. Thank you Barry, it's always a privilege to hear your views.

I don’t think BR is saying it is wrong but different to the way he did CE.

[DracoM]

to BR,

......but I still find it hard to escape the feeling that too often such 'services' as that from Knightsbridge feel closer to a concert than an 'eavesdropped' service .