King's College Cambridge Lessons and Carols (both L and R) 24/25th xii 22 / Rads 3 /4

[Rolmill]

[QUOTE=Caussade;903204]

The ensemble issue might have been a consequence of the microphone placement - the distance between organ and stalls in KCC necessitates playing a fair way ahead of the beat to ensure precise ensemble with the choir in the stalls. If the microphones closest to the organ were prevalent in the the mix this would account for the impression that the organ was constantly trying to press on.

Good point, thanks - though listening again it still seems to me that the organ is actually playing slightly faster in the quaver run passages between the verses (and at the start) than the speed prevailing whilst the choir is singing.

I think Dancing Day was done at Gardner's marked tempo - it's generally sung much faster than he indicated. Whether one likes that marking is another issue.

Yes, agreed - in fact I think the KCC tempo was slightly faster than the marked crotchet = 180 (not sure I've ever heard it done that slowly). As you suggest, I'm simply stating my preference for a faster speed than that marked by the composer (and sung by both KCC and SJC).

As I said previously, I thought both KCC broadcasts were very good, containing lots of well-balanced and beautifully phrased singing.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I’ve taken a long break from this forum. The last King’s broadcast under the late Cleobury was deeply disappointing which I commented on, and I think what we’ve heard is light years away from that. I’m surprised by the negativity from DracoM who for years has complained about the quality of KCC - which to be honest I agreed with.

King’s are back to a world class standard - the trebles in particular - the goalposts have been shifted again by naysayers to some nebulous and unspecific criticism to do with community singing. I think it’s rather revealing, and total rubbish. Choral singing has never been in ruder health in this country, and there are a clutch of choirs who sing and meet or exceed the standard of KCC. But to pick a bone with these broadcasts, with this sound - says much. Congratulations to Mr Hyde on returning King’s to something much closer to the Ledger sound - bright, confident, open, well paced, tender - and at times dramatic. So much musicality. Cambridge must feel like a very special place these days with all these world class choirs. I’d rather praise that then continue a 15 year diatribe that the choir and those who follow choral music are deeply cognisant of. Again nothing personal DracoM but I feel these comments are deeply unfair and frankly not to do with music.

Although I was distracted by cooking duties I had to pause during the Sans Day Carol. I couldn’t get over the subtlety of the singing, the gradation of tone and dynamic , the suppleness and sheer beauty of the singing. Top notch organ playing as well.

[Guest]

I’ve taken a long break from this forum. The last King’s broadcast under the late Cleobury was deeply disappointing .....

Disappointing in what way? I can't remember the details tbh....

[Awkwardlistener]

Neither can I - I’m sure others will recall more readily. Broadly I found the Cleobury sound inconsistent and baffling in how it swung wildly in terms of quality. Some days it could be thrilling and on others really ragged, with little space, poor blend, brittle, and at times unmusical. Just thought this was a special set of broadcasts

[Magister Chori]

the VW was fine, though a surprising inclusion, perhaps.

It wasn't the first time: we've already heard it at Carols from King's in 2018 (Stephen Cleobury's last TV broadcast) with Roderick Williams and Guy Johnston.

. Broadly I found the Cleobury sound inconsistent and baffling in how it swung wildly in terms of quality. Some days it could be thrilling and on others really ragged, with little space, poor blend, brittle, and at times unmusical.

I tend to agree, but we have also to acknowledge that Cleobury's health began to decline quite seriously during his last two years at the helm of KCC, so during his hospitalizations the conducting duties were shared between Ben Parry and Christopher Robinson.

And was that the first time a 'commission' wasn't actually an original composition but an arrangement? I was also very sorry to see that Cleobury wasn't recognised in any way in the list of music - be it in an arrangement or descant.

Very much agreed on both thoughts: regarding the new piece, I think that for such an occasion - and from such a fine composer like Matthew Martin - one would have expected something more than an arrangement (though exciting it was). On the other aspect: some Cleobury's arrangement are very effective and quite unique (he was on of the few to arrange - as instance - thinghs like The Cherry Tree Carol, The Linden Tree Carol, the Shropshire Carol or Morris' fine tune for Love Came down at Christmas).

[TootSweet]

[QUOTE=Magister Chori;903266]It wasn't the first time: we've already heard it at Carols from King's in 2018 (Stephen Cleobury's last TV broadcast) with Roderick Williams and Guy Johnston.



I tend to agree, but we have also to acknowledge that Cleobury's health began to decline quite seriously during his last two years at the helm of KCC, so during his hospitalizations the conducting duties were shared between Ben Parry and Christopher Robinson.



Very much agreed on both thoughts: regarding the new piece, I think that for such an occasion - and from such a fine composer like Matthew Martin - one would have expected something more than an arrangement (though exciting it was). QUOTE

It sounded like rather more than an arrangement to me!

[Vox Humana]

May seem a small point, but I regret the change to playing over just the last phrases of "O come" and "Hark the herald"

Hear, hear! I hate with a passion the practice of introducing a hymn by playing the end of the tune.

King’s are back to a world class standard - the trebles in particular

I agree. A few of the vowels were a bit odd, I thought, but infinitely better than under Cleobury. To my ears the trebles' top notes very occasionally sounded a cent or two under pitch, but perhaps it was my ears at fault.

... it seemed as if there were some glitches in terms of the coordination between choir and organ, which I was relieved didn't seem to have happened in the radio version

In both the TV and radio versions the organ scholar had a tendency to run ahead of the choir. I believe he has been in post two years, so, even with some Covid disruption, I would have thought he would have had ample time to get to grips with the situation. If there is no audio relay system in the organ loft (I have never noticed any) then he must have to play ahead of what he hears wafting up from below, but it's a skill that quickly becomes second nature. Rallentandos can be awkward, but that's not where the problems here lay. Daniel Hyde's wishy-washy hand movements must be a handicap, but I imagine the scholar relies more on what his ears (assuming he can actually hear the choir properly).

[TootSweet]

Hear, hear! I hate with a passion the practice of introducing a hymn by playing the end of the tune.


I agree. A few of the vowels were a bit odd, I thought, but infinitely better than uner Cleobury. To my ears the trebles' top notes very occasionally sounded a cent or two under pitch, but perhaps it was my ears at fault.


In both the TV and radio versions the organ scholar had a tendency to run ahead of the choir. I believe he has been in post two years, so, even with some Covid disruption, I would have thought he would have had ample time to get to grips with the situation. If there is no audio relay system in the organ loft (I have never noticed any) then he must have to play ahead of what he hears wafting up from below, but it's a skill that quickly becomes second nature. Rallentandos can be awkward, but that's not where the problems here lay. Daniel Hyde's wishy-washy hand movements must be a handicap, but I imagine the scholar relies more on what his ears (assuming he can actually hear the choir properly).

Hmmm. Quite bitchy re DH. He’s the best in the business IMO

[Vox Humana]

He’s the best in the business IMO

Hmm. That's tantamount to saying that, were he to leave for some reason, no other DoM in the land could better his achievement. That's not a point I would wish, or feel competent, to debate—and opinions on that sort of thing will always be very personal anyway. But, however good he is, it certainly does not follow that his performances are beyond criticism, any more than any other leading musician's performances are. Goodness, where would R3's Building a Library be without opinions? The choir is certainly back up to the stellar standards of old (as I had already acknowledged).

[cat]

It's usually wild arm-flapping that comes in for criticism on here, and I doubt it's necessary to conduct in that manner in order to be seen by the organist.

[TootSweet]

Hmm. That's tantamount to saying that, were he to leave for some reason, no other DoM in the land could better his achievement. That's not a point I would wish, or feel competent, to debate—and opinions on that sort of thing will always be very personal anyway. But, however good he is, it certainly does not follow that his performances are beyond criticism, any more than any other leading musician's performances are. Goodness, where would R3's Building a Library be without opinions? The choir is certainly back up to the stellar standards of old (as I had already acknowledged).

I disagree with the wishy-washy criticism. To me it seems musical and yet very clear (to musicians).

[Vox Humana]

To me it seems musical and yet very clear (to musicians).

Sometimes it is.

[TootSweet]

Sometimes it is.

Are we even fully qualified to criticise?

[Vox Humana]

Are we even fully qualified to criticise?

Speaking for myself I wouldn't dream of claiming any expertise, but I did have a little conducting tuition when I was young, know the basics and have occasionally been thanked by singers for using them. More to the point, there are those who have risen from cathedral/collegiate training who manifestly have cultivated a proper conducting technique (Harry Christophers and Stephen Layton to name but two) and they do stand out a mile. But this is getting out of proportion. My original point (and a small one at that) was to wonder why it might have been that the ensemble between choir and organ wasn't as tight as one would expect. It may well have been nothing to do with the conducting at all.

[PeterboroughDiapason]

I must admit I didn't notice poor ensemble except in the non-choir items - which could be microphone placement. I mustn't have been listening critically enough. My impression was that the organ playing was superb and I thought that the organ sound was excellent. The conducting seemed to me to be expressive and (thank goodness) unobtrusive.