CE Cathedral and Abbey Church of St Alban Oct 5th [R]

[DracoM]

So 'Pro Victoria' will have been paid more or less than the resident choir for their recording in St A's??

......... and thereby, do we / BBC thus remove any incentive / opportunity for the / or any resident cathedral choir?

And that's how to magically breed the next generation of excellent singers, is it?

[cat]

I note that Ensemble Pro Victoria did a similar style CE broadcast last October (thread) which no one objected to.

The native choir followed up with their own broadcast which posters seemed happy to trash.

[cat]

I’d have preferred to have dropped in on somewhere like Westminster Cathedral (if I’m honest). This just looks like a concert - there is a clip of the Parsons on their Instagram page, and the choir is centre stage in front of the priest censing the altar, which doesn’t quite sit right for me.

Liturgical choirs sing center-stage with their backs to the alter during services at places such as the Sistine Chapel and St John's College, Cambridge. I don't think it signifies that a concert is taking place.

[Keraulophone]

Liturgical choirs sing center-stage with their backs to the alter during services at places such as the Sistine Chapel and St John's College, Cambridge. I don't think it signifies that a concert is taking place.

For example during a Bach Cantata Evensong at St John's... though the Cantata itself can seem like a mini-concert within a service of Choral Evensong, when the choir moves from the choir stalls to the sanctuary - brilliantly done, of course, with orchestra and the occasional female guest soloist.
.

[DracoM]

Reminder........today at usual time!

[oddoneout]

I hadn't followed all these comments, just switched on at 4. Was rather disappointed - not keen on the singers. I listened all through but was left feeling less than uplifted.

[DracoM]

It really did feel like a concert. Alas.

[Subtuum]

It really did feel like a concert. Alas.

Yes, a very well sung one if I may add!

As many have so lamented recently the service had little feeling of dropping in on a solemn act of worship, and the chat at the start (which I don’t mind for a choral evensong broadcast) didn’t fit at all with the attempt for a pious sequence of liturgy.

IMHO this would’ve worked really well if presented as as a reconstruction of a service in the context of a concert.

I also think this could’ve include the Lay Clerks of the Abbey choir - either on their own or with extras but not by a stand alone pro group.

[Caussade]

Yes, a very well sung one if I may add!

As many have so lamented recently the service had little feeling of dropping in on a solemn act of worship, and the chat at the start (which I don’t mind for a choral evensong broadcast) didn’t fit at all with the attempt for a pious sequence of liturgy.

IMHO this would’ve worked really well if presented as as a reconstruction of a service in the context of a concert.

I also think this could’ve include the Lay Clerks of the Abbey choir - either on their own or with extras but not by a stand alone pro group.

How exactly would a 'reconstruction of a service in the context of a concert' have been different from what was broadcast?

[Subtuum]

How exactly would a 'reconstruction of a service in the context of a concert' have been different from what was broadcast?

It would be a concert. That didn’t feel like a service, as was flagged when it was first listed.

[Vox Humana]

Not my sort of sound, I'm afraid, but it's one that seems to be becoming more common. Perhaps it's a natural reaction against the Clerkes of Oxenford type of purity that held sway for decades. Even the Sixteen, who started out as a Clerkes clone, are now using a fuller, 'warmer' sound for this repertoire.

As for the visiting group versus resident choir argument, I'm sure it's just a coincidence that Ensemble pro Victoria are shortly to release an album for which they have been seeking crowdfunding.

[ardcarp]

Well, I determined not to listen with any preconceived ideas about CE, concerts, or 'services of 9 lessons and carols'. It certainly wasn't any of those, and maybe a strange choice for the CE slot, and I can quite understand that many were disappointed not to have the usual fare.

However, I enjoyed the repertoire; plenty of genuinely early music, well sung. The sound was quite appealing once you got used to it. I wonder if there was some 'academic' decision to use a low pitch for everything? Nothing above a mezzo soprano, and plenty of low men's voices, tenors sometimes on what we now regard as an alto line. Strange that Mary, who one might imagine to be a bright soprano, was celebrated somewhat gruffly!

My only musical niggle was that the 'cantor' in the much-loved Tallis Litany wasn't always secure in tuning and voice-production. Sorry mate!

Yes it was a strange choice for the CE slot, but I sat back this evening and gained much pleasure from the broadcast.

PS For those who like the pure sound, I suppose Voces 8 must be the ultimate. I always thought their online appearances might be over-manicured, but I've heard them live, and they're every bit as good! For a bigger ensemble, Nigel Short's Tenebrae are pretty darn good.

PPS Can anyone with a theological bent explain why Mary is sometimes referred to as 'Empress of Hell' ?

[Subtuum]

PPS Can anyone with a theological bent explain why Mary is sometimes referred to as 'Empress of Hell' ?

This is an interesting read: https://contingentmagazine.org/2020/...press-of-hell/

[Simon Biazeck]

Well, I determined not to listen with any preconceived ideas about CE, concerts, or 'services of 9 lessons and carols'. It certainly wasn't any of those, and maybe a strange choice for the CE slot, and I can quite understand that many were disappointed not to have the usual fare.

However, I enjoyed the repertoire; plenty of genuinely early music, well sung. The sound was quite appealing once you got used to it. I wonder if there was some 'academic' decision to use a low pitch for everything? Nothing above a mezzo soprano, and plenty of low men's voices, tenors sometimes on what we now regard as an alto line. Strange that Mary, who one might imagine to be a bright soprano, was celebrated somewhat gruffly!

My only musical niggle was that the 'cantor' in the much-loved Tallis Litany wasn't always secure in tuning and voice-production. Sorry mate!

Yes it was a strange choice for the CE slot, but I sat back this evening and gained much pleasure from the broadcast.

PS For those who like the pure sound, I suppose Voces 8 must be the ultimate. I always thought their online appearances might be over-manicured, but I've heard them live, and they're every bit as good! For a bigger ensemble, Nigel Short's Tenebrae are pretty darn good.

PPS Can anyone with a theological bent explain why Mary is sometimes referred to as 'Empress of Hell' ?

Well, I know the answer to this but the following from a boffin on the www puts it best:

In her role as mediatrix, Mary is humanity's primary advocate for mercy in salvation. The idea is that sinful Christians (all Christians are sinful) pray to her to intercede with Christ (God) on their behalf.
This is a little bit of a sticky situation in orthodox Christian theology, because all power in salvation lies with God. Mary has no power, and yet she does, and yet she doesn't. This is a pretty important apparent-fissure in medieval devotional theology. Mary asks Christ for mercy, but she always already agrees with his decision/she can't ask for anything he wouldn't grant. So where is Mary's power?
Well, later medieval theology has another soteriology (theology of salvation) problem, and that is the devil. The devil in orthodoxy Christianity also has, in the end, no power. He can't, because that would make him as strong as/stronger than God. The soteriology of Anselm (mentioned in OP) is crucial in setting out a theology of redemption that does away with so called "devil's rights" over people's souls, and puts the focus on the active work of Christ saving humans from human sins/sinfulness.
But if medieval people had religious obsessions besides the humanity of Christ, they were Mary and the devil.
One of the ways this plays out in later medieval literature (sermon illustrations, miracle stories, poems, plays) and early modern devotional poetry is the opposition of Mary to Satan: Mary becomes Satan's foil, his mortal enemy. Two ultimatel/technically powerless figures can take on the power everyone WANTS them to have--in opposition to each other.
The most famous and enduring example of this, and in fact the source of the Queen of Heaven/Empress of Hell dichotomous terminology, is variations on the Theophilus legend. This is especially awesome because Theophilus is the forerunner to one Herr Doktor Faustus. In this legend/miracle story, Theophilus makes a transaction with the devil for the rights to his soul. Near death, he comes to regret his decision (...) and begs Mary to help him. Mary is infinitely merciful, so she does. She puts on her big girl panties girds her loins for battle, descends into hell, and steals back the charter conveying Theophilus' soul to the devil!
It gets even more interesting, though, because Mary's mission to hell is portrayed as warfare. The tales evoke the devil's anger, and use language of violence and theft to describe Mary's actions. In her guise as empress of hell--that is, more powerful even than Satan--she is not the mother of mercy, she is the "queen of vengeance."

PS - I strongly suspect that the cantor today was a cleric.

[DracoM]

[QUOTE=Vox Humana;895616]
Not my sort of sound, I'm afraid, - agreed.

First time in YEARS that I have switched off a soi-disant CE half way through.
For me, sounded like a concert skillfully put together.