The Boy and Girl thing

[ardcarp]

In the June edition of Choir & Organ the first reference to the above comes from Llandaff Cathedral which announces itself as 'the latest to offer equal ops' [sic]. Boy and girl choristers will all be educated at The Cathedral School. Girls will be eligible for the same scholarships as boys and will share out equally the singing of the weekly services as separate choirs.

A few pages later, there is also a comversartion between David Hill and Adrian Partington. AP is the DoM at Gloucester (in addition to his duties in the wider musical world...how does he do it?). He has persuaded the Dean and Chapter that the girls and boys should also be kept as two separate choirs, or as he puts it 'to have two sets of choristers [following the examples of] Salisbury, Exeter and Wells Cathedrals.'

All the above seems eminently sensible to me; and there is absolutely no reason why the separate treble-lines cannot join together for special occasions.

I'm not one to get steamed up about this subject, and it will be interesting to see how choirs which intend to have mixed treble lines fare in the future.

[DracoM]

Thx for into.

[Keraulophone]

'to have two sets of choristers [following the examples of] Salisbury, Exeter and Wells Cathedrals.'

All the above seems eminently sensible to me; and there is absolutely no reason why the separate treble-lines cannot join together for special occasions.

…and to me. You can add Truro to the above list, though incorporating boys aged 8-13 and girls 13-18. The different age ranges allow for significant differences in repertoire and musical education, as well as minimising the risk of competitiveness between boys and girls of the same (younger) age range. Since the choir (prep) school recently passed a recent ISI regulatory inspection, having these two top lines of differing age ranges would seem not to contravene OFSTED’s gender equality policies.

[DracoM]

[cat]

There are obviously advantages and disadvantages to all the different models (age range, mixed or separate etc), and what works well in once place might not in another place.

Hopefully things will naturally settle nationally into a variety of arrangements in the various places that everyone is comfortable with, and people can stop getting so excited about it all.

[Magister Chori]

Westminster Abbey also seems to be interested in having a girls choir (though mainly aimed for services in St Margaret's), separate from the boys and supported by its own lower voices:

The Dean and Chapter has a long-standing commitment to introduce excellent opportunities for girl choristers whilst sustaining the quality of experience and performance offered under its unique model of boy chorister development. The intention is to create a separate girls’ choir with its own professional lower voices; this would support our ministry in St Margaret’s but also perform occasionally in the Abbey. An early priority for the incoming Organist and Master of the Choristers would be to review and agree with Chapter the planned approach to the introduction of girl choristers and to lead its implementation in the near future.

from: https://www.westminster-abbey.org/me...-omc-wa141.pdf

[Vox Humana]

As a non-singer, there's one thing with cathedral girls' choirs that puzzles me. What happens if you're a young girl and are a natural contralto? In my first term at music college I got into conversation with a singer and asked him what voice he was. He replied. 'I don't know. My teacher hasn't decided yet.' So I know voices are malleable, rangewise, and maybe young girls are easier than most to mould (are they?), but presumably any prospective Kathleen Ferrier has to put up with being turned into a soprano. There have been a couple of occasions when I've heard a girl and thought, 'Aren't you really a contralto singing the wrong part?'

[Subtuum]

As a non-singer, there's one thing with cathedral girls' choirs that puzzles me. What happens if you're a young girl and are a natural contralto? In my first term at music college I got into conversation with a singer and asked him what voice he was. He replied. 'I don't know. My teacher hasn't decided yet.' So I know voices are malleable, rangewise, and maybe young girls are easier than most to mould (are they?), but presumably any prospective Kathleen Ferrier has to put up with being turned into a soprano. There have been a couple of occasions when I've heard a girl and thought, 'Aren't you really a contralto singing the wrong part?'

Female voices change (or break) during adolescence / puberty just like male voices.

[Lizzie]

…and to me. You can add Truro to the above list, though incorporating boys aged 8-13 and girls 13-18. The different age ranges allow for significant differences in repertoire and musical education, as well as minimising the risk of competitiveness between boys and girls of the same (younger) age range. Since the choir (prep) school recently passed a recent ISI regulatory inspection, having these two top lines of differing age ranges would seem not to contravene OFSTED’s gender equality policies.

Add Winchester Cathedral too! Our Girl's Choir is magnificent. Since the inauguration of the Girl's Choir over twenty years ago, it has gone from strength to strength. Both Boys and Girls attain, and retain, the consistent highest standard despite the limitations of Covid. Andy Lumsden ensures that standards never waver.

[Keraulophone]

Add Winchester Cathedral too! Our Girl's Choir is magnificent.

Indeed, Lizzie. The decision our cathedrals took to establish girl choristers was taken some time ago with complete integrity, and a genuine desire for inclusion, diversity and opportunity. By contrast, the recent flurry of announcements has been forced upon some institutions by the ISI. Although Winchester’s choir school, being boys only, would not have fallen foul of the ISI’s current insistence on gender equality, their girl choristers have enjoyed cathedral chorister status since 1998/9.
.

[Lizzie]

Indeed, Lizzie. The decision our cathedrals took to establish girl choristers was taken some time ago with complete integrity, and a genuine desire for inclusion, diversity and opportunity. By contrast, the recent flurry of announcements has been forced upon some institutions by the ISI. Although Winchester’s choir school, being boys only, would not have fallen foul of the ISI’s current insistence on gender equality, their girl choristers have enjoyed cathedral chorister status since 1998/9.
.

Exactly. The original decision was excellent, and added a wonderful additional dimension for the Cathedral, then and now.
The Girls sang the Dove MB on Sunday morning, and it was exceptional. Claudia Grinnell was directing and Andy L played. Worth a listen on YouTube, before it gets taken off on Saturday.

[Keraulophone]

You have a great team there, Lizzie (as we have here ).

[ardcarp]

Most young girls can sing in the 'head voice' treble range. As Subtuum suggests, it becomes obvious in, say, their early teens that some will keep their easy top range, while others will develop a mezzo-type quality to their voices. It's usually possible to decide whether contralto or mezzo-soprano is their true calling, but this may come later. Fortunately most songs and lieder are available in different keys, so you can choose an accomp. to suit the range. Or transpose!

But oh dear. Aside from the realm of church/cathedral music, there is school singing. There is an awful trend for schoolkids to learn songs which are set dreadfully low, e.e with a range from bottom A (two leger-lines below the treble stave) to not much more than an octave above. And they use a shouty chest voice. Mrs A and I went to a concert last Sunday where a prep-school choir...25% boys and 75% girls.... was doing just that. It's weird. When an occasional 'high' note pops up, they slip for just a moment into their head-voices, and then return to shouting. It really is pitiful, and I wish music teachers would realise the beauty of the head-voice and choose songs for their choirs (and classes) which are set at a sensible pitch.

[Vox Humana]

Female voices change (or break) during adolescence / puberty just like male voices.

Many thanks for that. I admit I didn't realise that. So there's no such thing as a pre-adolescent contralto?

[ardcarp]

We're a singing family. My eldest grand-daughter (now in early 20s) was born with the gift of a very good vocal 'instrument' and she was always able to produce a mellow middle-to-low register and also able to hit the heights...she fell in love with the Queen of the Night's aria, not to mention the Allegri. Having taught kids in the past, this was quite unusual. While she can still do 'classical' she now enjoys doing numbers from the shows and other 'light music'. So she's a singing chameleon. None of the rest of the family has this flexibility. As an ageing tenor, my own range gets smaller but Mrs A is still a straight soprano with all the high notes.

So nothing is set in stone and I guess all singers are different.