CE Chapel of Keble College, Oxford [R] Wed, 9th March 2022

[Resurgam]

I think the general silence is probably that most people think critiquing evensongs on an internet forum is a bit old hat. And the arguments on here are all the same… it’s all boy choristers and openly pissing on the work of excellent choral directors and singers!

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Of course, people are going to comment like this when all you seem to read these days is that the your so called excellent choral directors of some very well established choirs in the Anglican cathedrals and chapels are seemingly doing their very best to help get rid of them rather than trying to preserve the great tradition they inherited from their predecessors.

Excellent? I think some of their recent actions are,frankly,disgraceful.

Typical Anglican church, always getting rid of anything good. You name it, The King James Bible, Book of Common Prayer and now the great Anglican choral tradition and unchurching many worshippers as a result rather than attracting more.

Yes, all male choirs and why not.

When we fully recover from the Plague let us hope that we hear more regular live broadcasts of what is left of our choirs of boys and men.

[mw963]

Well said Resurgam,

As in many other similar areas, it seems that there are some people who actually want to "shut down" debate on certain subjects. I'm not sure if it's that they genuinely think they know better, or if they are driven by a near-hatred of those people who disagree with them.

I too have given up posting here, there are some knowledgeable people I grant you, but there are some really rather dodgy types as well, and the atmosphere often leaves a great deal to be desired.

And I pretty much forget to listen to the broadcasts either, because it is so rare to have a "trad cathedral evensong".

And before anyone has a go, I actually think that many of the Girls Choirs at Cathedrals are doing a terrific job and - at times - knock spots off the Boys. But mixing them up as the default position means we're losing something we'll never get back, precisely as was foreseen thirty years ago.....

[Braunschlag]

.

Of course, people are going to comment like this when all you seem to read these days is that the your so called excellent choral directors of some very well established choirs in the Anglican cathedrals and chapels are seemingly doing their very best to help get rid of them rather than trying to preserve the great tradition they inherited from their predecessors.

Excellent? I think some of their recent actions are,frankly,disgraceful.

Typical Anglican church, always getting rid of anything good. You name it, The King James Bible, Book of Common Prayer and now the great Anglican choral tradition and unchurching many worshippers as a result rather than attracting more.

Yes, all male choirs and why not.

When we fully recover from the Plague let us hope that we hear more regular live broadcasts of what is left of our choirs of boys and men.

Try reading this excellent book -

https://www.penguin.co.uk/authors/135272/timothy-day.html

If pretty much puts paid to the oft-quoted and entirely mythical ‘great Anglican choral tradition’ - he suggests, with plenty of substantive research, that it never really existed. Maybe nostalgia isn’t what it used to be……

[Vox Humana]

If pretty much puts paid to the oft-quoted and entirely mythical ‘great Anglican choral tradition’ - he suggests, with plenty of substantive research, that it never really existed.

If you don't mind me saying (or even if you do), I think that's ever so slightly misleading. One should be clear about exactly what it was that never really existed. The pure, angelic sound of boys and the high standards established at, and inspired by, King's, Cambridge, are not much, if at all, older than the twentieth century. However, the tradition of all-male choirs is most definitely centuries old, even if the standards were sometimes dire. As I have said before, I have no problem at all with girls' top lines, but I do share the concern that music can only be impoverished when, as seems inevitable, the all-boys top lines become extinct.

[Braunschlag]

I don’t mind at all Vox!

[Vox Humana]

[jonfan]

The death knell of all male choirs has been rung many times and it still hasn’t happened. Where there’s the will (and there certainly is) plus cash they will continue. I’ve enjoyed the CEs from Oxbridge colleges on YouTube during the pandemic and the Anglican Choral Tradition is in very good health there. Just to add to the conversation at least one of the choirs has a female tenor! Of necessity local church choirs have had a mixed top line for decades, though the differences should be celebrated which is why the BBC Chorister competition going for one overall winner a mistake.

[ardcarp]

Try reading this excellent book -

https://www.penguin.co.uk/authors/13...mothy-day.html

If pretty much puts paid to the oft-quoted and entirely mythical ‘great Anglican choral tradition’ - he suggests, with plenty of substantive research, that it never really existed. Maybe nostalgia isn’t what it used to be……

Haven't read the book, but will do at some point. As far as the Anglican tradition is concerned, it depends what you mean by 'Anglican'. There was certainly a pretty substantial English tradition in Catholic England. One only has to think of the soaring treble parts of Taverner, Fayrfax, and much of the Eton Choirbook to know that the singers (in all parts) must have been pretty agile. Earlier, John Dunstable is thought to have had international influence, e.g. on Flemish and Burgundian composers. Going back to 'Anglican', the post-Reformation period of Purcell, Croft, Greene and Boyce must have had some nifty singers, albeit in the London ambit of The Chapel Royal, Westminster Abbey and the like. At a more mundane level, one might say at the parish level, the evolution of the Anglican Psalm Chant, and our much-loved [?] books of foursquare hymns are surely evidence of a tradition. This post has nothing to do with the boy/girl thing. A musical tradition can be maintained by either or both.

[Resurgam]

Haven't read the book, but will do at some point. As far as the Anglican tradition is concerned, it depends what you mean by 'Anglican'. There was certainly a pretty substantial English tradition in Catholic England. One only has to think of the soaring treble parts of Taverner, Fayrfax, and much of the Eton Choirbook to know that the singers (in all parts) must have been pretty agile. Earlier, John Dunstable is thought to have had international influence, e.g. on Flemish and Burgundian composers. Going back to 'Anglican', the post-Reformation period of Purcell, Croft, Greene and Boyce must have had some nifty singers, albeit in the London ambit of The Chapel Royal, Westminster Abbey and the like. At a more mundane level, one might say at the parish level, the evolution of the Anglican Psalm Chant, and our much-loved [?] books of foursquare hymns are surely evidence of a tradition. This post has nothing to do with the boy/girl thing. A musical tradition can be maintained by either or both.

Sorry ardcarp, let's be clear, the church in England/of England choral tradition up to just before the end of the 20th century had been all male choirs.

I don't object to girls' top lines but I do object to boy treble lines being completely frozen out as has happened most recently at St John's Cambridge, Windsor, Hereford and Chichester with the support of the current DoMs who should in my opinion be the guardians of the tradition handed down to them not supporters of solely mixed top lines especially when their current all male choirs are going concerns.

There should be room for mixed- gender groups of singers, groups for boys only and groups for girls only. I personally think that boys' top lines produce the best results. To hear well trained boys swagger into full voice will always send a shiver down my spine, it is a unique sound that cannot be replicated by girls/young women.

I wonder why all boys/male voice choirs attract so much hostility from those who claim to be champions of equality?