News from Hereford

[Peanut]

https://www.herefordcathedral.org/news/hereford-cathedral-choir-announcement

[Keraulophone]

From the Precentor of Hereford:

"Thanks to a generous anonymous donation, we are so pleased to be able to make this announcement today. The introduction of a mixed top line will allow us to increase the number of choristers within the choir..."

...but will presumably decrease the total number of boy choristers able to join the choir. Another fine choir of boys and men (+ the occasional female alto) follows the example of St John's, Cambridge and Chichester Cathedral to become history, the economic option taken instead of supporting two separate choirs of boy and girl choristers, as for example thrive at York Minster. The difference in sound is subtle but, for this pair of ears, is worth preserving.

[french frank]

Just on a point of information. Would there have been a separate girls' choir, in which case boys could join that; or were there no opportunities for girls to sing at all?

[oddoneout]

I've read the full announcement and note this

The introduction of a mixed top line will allow us to increase the number of choristers within the choir

(my bold)
If I understand correctly the donation has enabled the provision of the scholarships the boys have, which presumably the cathedral has been unable to fund up to now, hence no girls?

[Old Grumpy]

I've read the full announcement and note this (my bold)
If I understand correctly the donation has enabled the provision of the scholarships the boys have, which presumably the cathedral has been unable to fund up to now, hence no girls?

Twould appear that way to me:

The Revd Canon Andrew Piper, Precentor, said: ‘For many years the Chapter has wanted to make it possible for girls to sing in our cathedral choir, but we were not able to do so in a financially stable way that would offer equal opportunities for both boy and girl choristers. Thanks to a generous anonymous donation, we are so pleased to be able to make this announcement today. The introduction of a mixed top line will allow us to increase the number of choristers within the choir and to maintain our regular pattern of daily services as girls and boys sing alongside one another. This welcome development is really good news for the cathedral as well as for our music department.

[DracoM]

Another telling stat: so, in essence, fewer boys being well briefed on musical skills thus fewer male soloists / teachers / role models?
Serious news.

[Miles Coverdale]

If I understand correctly the donation has enabled the provision of the scholarships the boys have, which presumably the cathedral has been unable to fund up to now, hence no girls?

Yes, the total number of scholarships will be increased from 18 to 24 (12 for boys and 12 for girls, obviously).

A mixed top line has the advantage that all the choristers will sing all the psalmody each month, rather than half of it. Hereford is one of the few cathedrals which still sings the BCP psalms for the day, and that has always been a large part of the tradition there.

It also means that there is none of that slightly invidious division of repertoire between two top lines, so that only the boys sing this piece and only the girls sing that piece, which I've never really understood.

[Guest]

From the Precentor of Hereford:

"Thanks to a generous anonymous donation, we are so pleased to be able to make this announcement today. The introduction of a mixed top line will allow us to increase the number of choristers within the choir..."

...but will presumably decrease the total number of boy choristers able to join the choir. Another fine choir of boys and men (+ the occasional female alto) follows the example of St John's, Cambridge and Chichester Cathedral to become history, the economic option taken instead of supporting two separate choirs of boy and girl choristers, as for example thrive at York Minster. Can you hear the difference? That depends whether you have cloth ears or not.

Sorry, but I find the last sentence rather offensive. "Cloth Ears" is defined as a "derogatory term" I obviously have cloth ears because I probably couldn't tell. More importantly, I don't give a damn. I want to hear God worshipped worthily in a way that is edifying to me - whoever is singing.

[ardcarp]

12 for boys and 12 for girls

While a good boy treble has a distinctive sound, there is no reason why that should not continue to be the case. In fact I have changed my opinion somewhat over the years (maybe because I have singing daughters/g-daughters!) and have realised that girl choristers have true head-voices if trained properly and are brought up in the tradition. The Salisbury girl-choristers were something of a revelation in their first ever broadcast of CE when they displayed an almost continental sound which I thought was fabulous. Nothing wet or feeble...just confidence!

Going back to the 50/50 mix of boys and girls, I think it is most important to keep that ratio equal...mainly for social reasons. The macho culture which can affect boys of a certain age is less likely to rear its head if it is seen as 'normal' for boys to sing. If girls start to predominate numerically, that could become a problem. Otherwise I am very firmly in favour of equal opportunities. Draco has a point though. We do need future ATBs, but if the 'equal numbers' system is firmly maintained, I see no reason why the supply should dry up.

BTW some of the best 'cathedral' singing I ever heard was at Malcolm Archer's final carol service at Wells where the boys and girls sang together.

[Old Grumpy]

I probably couldn't tell. More importantly, I don't give a damn. I want to hear God worshipped worthily in a way that is edifying to me - whoever is singing.

[jonfan]

Sorry, but I find the last sentence rather offensive. "Cloth Ears" is defined as a "derogatory term" I obviously have cloth ears because I probably couldn't tell. More importantly, I don't give a damn. I want to hear God worshipped worthily in a way that is edifying to me - whoever is singing.

[Keraulophone]

Sorry, but I find the last sentence rather offensive. "Cloth Ears" is defined as a "derogatory term" I obviously have cloth ears because I probably couldn't tell. More importantly, I don't give a damn. I want to hear God worshipped worthily in a way that is edifying to me - whoever is singing.

I'm also sorry for having offended you with my use of 'C.. E..' and I've replaced the last sentence in the second post above.

[Keraulophone]

but if the 'equal numbers' system is firmly maintained...

BTW some of the best 'cathedral' singing I ever heard was at Malcolm Archer's final carol service at Wells where the boys and girls sang together.

That's an important 'if'.

Some time ago, the top line that we heard on CE broadcasts from Wells Cathedral regularly consisted of the 'Lower [Wells Cathedral] School Choir' consisting of the top year or two (?) boy and girl choristers. Magnificat, a contributor to the old BBC R3 MB, would complain that all the boy choristers were no longer chosen to broadcast, being incresingly replaced by the mixed Lower School Choir (if that is what it was) singing the top line. IIRC, he had little support from other MB contributors.

FWIW, I've had the very good fortune to have sung opposite my daughter in the cathedral choir during the first five years of Truro Cathedral's girl chorister programme, but I also take special pleasure in singing with the boy choristers for their half-share of the week's choral services. The separate top lines combine on special occasions to impressive effect.

[Miles Coverdale]

Another fine choir of boys and men (+ the occasional female alto) follows the example of St John's, Cambridge and Chichester Cathedral to become history, the economic option taken instead of supporting two separate choirs of boy and girl choristers, as for example thrive at York Minster. The difference in sound is subtle but, for this pair of ears, is worth preserving.

To view decisions such as this solely through a financial lens is, I think, unfair. Each cathedral must decide what will work best in its own situation, and will have to consider available rehearsal space, pattern of services and other factors. I don’t think it is true that, as you seem to suggest, a choir with two separate top lines is self-evidently better than one with a mixed top line, and is the option that every cathedral would adopt if only it could afford to. Indeed, I think an argument could be made that introducing two top lines singing half the services each merely serves to make two good choirs out of one very good one.

[Keraulophone]

To view decisions such as this solely through a financial lens is, I think, unfair. Each cathedral must decide what will work best in its own situation, and will have to consider available rehearsal space, pattern of services and other factors. I don’t think it is true that, as you seem to suggest, a choir with two separate top lines is self-evidently better than one with a mixed top line, and is the option that every cathedral would adopt if only it could afford to. Indeed, I think an argument could be made that introducing two top lines singing half the services each merely serves to make two good choirs out of one very good one.

Financial stricture is but one factor involved in the recent announcements that existing boy treble top lines are to be replaced with mixed boy/girl sopranos. There could, however, be one overriding consideration that has yet fully to come to light, namely a forthcoming Department for Education ruling that if a choir school is mixed, they must now offer the attached cathedral or college top line to both boys and girls. If the choir school is boys only, they are exempt from the mixed treble line requirement, eg Westminster Abbey Choir School.

The DfE document Gender separation in mixed schools already states that: 'Schools should check that there are no practices that could result in less favourable treatment of a boy or a girl because of his or her sex.' It looks as though this policy will soon be extended to the private educational sector, including St John's College School, The Prebendal School, Chichester and Hereford Cathedral School. If this is indeed the case, are these institutions being a little disingenuous with their reasoning? Have they genuinely wanted their soprano lines to go mixed, are they recent converts after witnessing progressive change elsewhere, or have they discovered that they must comply with upcoming government policy?