News from Windsor

[Caussade]

https://www.stgeorges-windsor.org/news/the-choir-of-st-georges-chapel/?fbclid=IwAR0TTSNGbXhvEentLWc6BARm4rMlY7YJq7d-Y0qtkO6kBuFdtlKx_etffeA

[cat]

As I predicted, the change at St John's has made it easy for other places with co-ed choir schools to do likewise. By my calculations this change, combined with those at St John's and Chichester mean 28 more places for girls, and 28 fewer for boys. Given that girls already outnumbered boys I hope that the opportunity for girls to sing in these particular places is considered worth the overall reduction in singing opportunities for boys.

[Serial_Apologist]

I thought this would be about Kate becoming 40 today!

[ardcarp]

As I predicted, the change at St John's has made it easy for other places with co-ed choir schools to do likewise. By my calculations this change, combined with those at St John's and Chichester mean 28 more places for girls, and 28 fewer for boys. Given that girls already outnumbered boys I hope that the opportunity for girls to sing in these particular places is considered worth the overall reduction in singing opportunities for boys.

I just thought I'd mention that James Vivian, the excellent DoM at Windsor, has posted on this Forum. I for one am very pleased he is part of our online community.

[Peanut]

I would imagine this has been on the table at Windsor a lot longer than simply since the John's decision/announcement.

[Resurgam]

As I predicted, the change at St John's has made it easy for other places with co-ed choir schools to do likewise. By my calculations this change, combined with those at St John's and Chichester mean 28 more places for girls, and 28 fewer for boys. Given that girls already outnumbered boys I hope that the opportunity for girls to sing in these particular places is considered worth the overall reduction in singing opportunities for boys.

They say that they are pleased to give the same opportunities to girls as to boys but the truth is that they cannot get the boys otherwise they would run two choirs in tandem despite the cost.

Windsor has, for some time now, had fewer than the usual 16 boys on the top line.

The fact that they now have their first woman alto has nothing to do with it.

[Miles Coverdale]

They say that they are pleased to give the same opportunities to girls as to boys but the truth is that they cannot get the boys otherwise they would run two choirs in tandem despite the cost.

Would they? Is your remark based on knowledge or merely supposition?

[James Vivian]

Thank you for your interest and comments. In 2019-20, we had 20 singing boys and tonight we had 16 singing boys. All the best, James Vivian.

[RichardB]

I thought this would be about Kate becoming 40 today!

who?

[Resurgam]

Thank you for your interest and comments. In 2019-20, we had 20 singing boys and tonight we had 16 singing boys. All the best, James Vivian.

Then why not keep the choir going as it is?

Do you expect the number of boys to keep falling and having to make up the numbers with girls or is it really giving girls the same chance to sing as boys?

[french frank]

Then why not keep the choir going as it is?

Do you expect the number of boys to keep falling and having to make up the numbers with girls or is it really giving girls the same chance to sing as boys?

Wasn't the comment refuting your assertion that "Windsor has, for some time now, had fewer than the usual 16 boys on the top line"?

[James Vivian]

Thank you again for the various replies: the following comments and views are my own.

Recruitment at Windsor has been good since a revamped Chorister for a Day was introduced back in 2013. This is a vital outreach and recruitment tool: 1700+ schools (virtually all are state) are contacted and we have, pre-Covid, welcomed 30+ young hopefuls each year. This has translated into many more applicants each year. So, to put your mind at rest concerning our number of choristers (including probationers), I make our numbers as follows:

2013/14: 18
2014/15: 15
2015/16: 16
2016/17: 19
2017/18: 20
2018/19: 22
2019/20: 21
2020/21: 20
2021/22: 17 (yes, a boy is joining us in two weeks time)

It is probably true to say that between 2014 and 2017, there were a larger number of unsurpliced boys in our ranks; CFAD certainly came into its own filling gaps in various year groups during this period. I am very pleased that we have managed to find enough boys of the right quality to join the ranks. I am sure all will understand the difficulty of recruiting over the last two years as ‘open days’ and voice trials had to be online. However, interest from boys and girls this year at our in-person CFADs - held on the last three Sundays - leaves me very hopeful that we will be able to fill the two vacancies in our Year 4 and appoint choristers in the year below too. Open Days in person are key .

I am proud that we have boys from all backgrounds and that Chapter have 'topped up' the standard scholarship when needed. As you can imagine, the provision to provide for up to 23 choristers is a great commitment and I am grateful to my Chapter that the commitment to the choir (including our Lay Clerks and Organists) - particularly over the last two years - has been unwavering. (As a footnote, I have chosen not to appoint 23 choristers in any given year simply because it is an uncomfortable fit for the choirstalls.)

The decision by any institution to change is not taken lightly and is taken after all models and all pertinent points have been discussed at length many times. Each institution is different and will come to its own conclusion. As the Dean of Windsor said in our announcement earlier this month, "...that although we live out our vocation amid ancient buildings, we should strive to be true to the Christian Gospel in today's world. We believe it right to include both boys and girls as participants in the great Choral tradition of English Church music." I wholeheartedly agree that this is right for Windsor at this time but accept that some will not.


To avoid confusion, I am delighted that there are institutions that offer two top rows, but we felt this was not the right choice for Windsor. First, cost was prohibitive because, as mentioned above, we are committed to providing opportunity to talented children from all financial backgrounds.Financial considerations aside, I am also adamant that here in Windsor there should be one choir which sings every day, is trained principally by me every day, sings Garter Days and other special services, and enjoys the experience of all broadcasts, recordings etc. We are not a cathedral and are not called on to host, for example, many extra diocesan events each year; this reduces the number of services to split between two top rows.

Yes, we may be halving the number of opportunities for boys but we are creating many opportunities for girls. I understand the concerns that there may be fewer male singers in the future. Rather than limiting opportunities for girls in our cathedrals, I personally feel that there is a much more convincing argument to be made for raising the general level of music-making in schools, thereby reaching and nurturing more young singers of both genders.

It is to be expected that a change such as this will evoke many reactions and comments representing all sides. I hope that I might have at least allayed the argument that our change is recruitment driven or for any other reason than it is, in our view, the right thing to do. I will not be writing any more on this matter but hope that this is received in the spirit in which it has been written.

All good wishes,

James Vivian.

[ardcarp]

Good for you, James, and all at Windsor.

[Resurgam]

Good for you, James, and all at Windsor.

The choir of boys and men is obviously a going concern at Windsor as it is at St John's Cambridge.

In these circumstances I cannot see any satisfactory argument for destroying a thriving boys' top line and thereby depriving 8 or so boys from singing in a top rank choir for the paltry 4 years or so they can sing well and giving their places to 8 girls who will be able to sing forever. What sort of equality is that.

As I said about Chichester, if cost is a problem and Windsor is looking to give true equal opportunities in the choir to boys and girls they should recruit two non-fee paying or scholarship funded separate top lines from the surrounding community however challenging it might be.

I am grateful to James Vivian for the courtesy of a reply when many of his colleagues would not have bothered but I fundamentally disagree with all he has said and so I am sure do many others who are passionate about the Anglican choral tradition. It is a shame but I do wonder if choir DoMs stand up enough to pressure from Deans and Chapters and other quarters and really fight to keep their boys' top lines and are themselves prepared to go the extra mile to do so.

[oddoneout]

It is a shame but I do wonder if choir DoMs stand up enough to pressure from Deans and Chapters and other quarters and really fight to keep their boys' top lines and are themselves prepared to go the extra mile to do so.

If the DoMs are employed by Dean and Chapter where does the balance of power lie? In the world outside the church, if your employer decides to change the way things are done in your place of work how much influence do you have in that decision? Once a decision is made that you disagree with, do you stay and try and make the best of it or do you go?
I think that your suggestion that DoMs don't try hard enough is unfair unless you know the full circumstances of each case, and also overlooks that some DoMs may possibly not have a problem with the changes, or not enough to justify giving up a job they enjoy, are good at, and in which they feel they can contribute to the church's purpose.