‘Girls and women to sing as members of The Choir of St John’s‘

[ahinton]

I don't imply any such thing.

My posts on this topic make it clear that I support girls singing in church choirs but I don't agree with the unnecessary destruction of first rate choirs of boys and men.

You made that less than clear at the time.

to regard the latter being the tradition and that this should always be so, it should be remembered that boys singing in the various foundations was usually a condition of their founding statutes and charters. It has probably not been that easy historically to get around this legally although it must now be possible to make changes to allow girls choirs to operate in college chapels and cathedrals.

Fair comment insofar as it goes, but those founding statutes and charters date back so far that the general law today is not what it was in those times.

Probably it is still difficult in places like Westminster Abbey and Eton College and King's with their Royal origins. I don't believe St John's is a Royal foundation which is probably why they can make the change if they wish but I am not legally qualified to say on any of this.

I am likewise without such legal expertise but presumably such royal origins are a matter for the relevant successors just as those founding statutes and charters are for theirs; each to their own, in other words subject to changes in general law since day 1 in each case.

I support women's equality in all respects but there are some who seem to campaign tirelessly against men ( and boys ) without accepting that men and women and girls and boys are not the same and there are numerous situations in which these differences should be accommodated.

I have no problem about all-male choirs either but, as I likewise have no problem with mixed ones, it seems only right that whoever is in charge in each instutition makes the relevant decisions - and I don't think that the changes to take place at St. John's are the outcome of "campaigining tirelessly again men and boys" any more than they're about getting rid of same from their choir.

[ardcarp]

This was on today's R3 Afternoon Concert, an unexpected item on the car radio.

JS Bach: Allein zu dir, Herr Jesu Christ, Cantata BWV33
Terry Wey, alto
Patrick Grahl, tenor
Tobias Berndt, bass
Windsbach Boys' Choir Freiburg Baroque Orchestra
Martin Lehmann, conductor

It sounded so 'right'. I think there's another cantata tomorrow.

[defensin]

I’m not sure they do much other than sing Jingle Bells in the pub anyway, but of course it’s useful performance experience outside their usual setting.

That isn’t really fair. Before the pandemic they had a busy concert schedule outside term, which now seems to be recovering - this September alone they sang six full-length concerts across the south of England (information easily found on their website). Jingle Bells in the pub would obviously be the high point of anyone’s year though.

[french frank]

Jingle Bells in the pub would obviously be the high point of anyone’s year though.

Hello, welcome. I was interested to see that Google Translate's version of Jingle bells, jingle all the way was pretty singable to the original tune:

Sonantis campanis
sonantis omni modo

[cat]

That isn’t really fair. Before the pandemic they had a busy concert schedule outside term, which now seems to be recovering - this September alone they sang six full-length concerts across the south of England (information easily found on their website). Jingle Bells in the pub would obviously be the high point of anyone’s year though.

I apologise, I made that off-hand comment without looking into their schedules these days. I had meant to highlight how the impact of this change on choristerships was so much more significant the impact on the back row.

When it comes to training the singers of the futures, admitting women altos into the Gents (and the back row of the choir) isn't going to affect the number of future altos. Sure, it might yeild more contraltos and fewer countertenors, but I think that men who might consider making a career out of singing countertenor would still make the cut despite the number of places for male altos being potentially halved so I don't see a problem there.

However there's no way to know with 8 year old boys who is going to be a future professional tenor or bass, so a mixed treble line will certainly halve the number of boys going on to a career in singing from a St John's choristership, and I never heard any choir say they're oversubscribed with tenors and desperately need more sopranos. If this mixed treble line is consequently copied widely, then the reduction in places for boys will have a significant impact on choral music in this country. I fail to see how halving boy chorister opportunities is preferable to having two equal treble lines singing slightly fewer services per week.

[DracoM]

<< I fail to see how halving boy chorister opportunities is preferable to having two equal treble lines singing slightly fewer services per week.>>

Spot on.

[cat]

As I predicted Chichester swiftly follows suit:

https://www.chichestercathedral.org.uk/news/chichester-cathedral-opens-its-doors-girl-choristers

“We are delighted now to offer the chorister experience to girls as well as boys. Having one team of choristers singing 7 services each week is a wonderful, immersive training for the children, and it plays to the high musical standards that we aspire to. Rather than running two choirs, we will continue with one, inviting girls and boys to work side-by-side on equal terms.”

I am sure Chichester have grappled with how they can introduce a separate girls top line for some time, but no need to worry about that now when they can simply follow the lead of St. John’s and reduce the number of boys.

[cloughie]

Hello, welcome. I was interested to see that Google Translate's version of Jingle bells, jingle all the way was pretty singable to the original tune:

Sonantis campanis
sonantis omni modo

The second line is a bit of a rush!

[cat]

A bit reluctant to bump this thread, but it’s that time of year when this subject inevitably arises in the mainstream media, and thus here’s a Telegraph piece which is I think the first newspaper article to mention the changes at St. John’s. It contains some quotes from some key people in Cambridge:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/music/what-to-listen-to/could-end-boys-only-choirs/