‘Girls and women to sing as members of The Choir of St John’s‘

[jonfan]

Just to lighten things a bit; I didn't sing as a treble in any choir but joined the tenors in a mixed choir because girls were there!!

[french frank]

PS I do not need lectures on this. Have been in the front line and know it to be true.

But are you equally sympathetic towards the problems young girls have?

[cat]

But are you equally sympathetic towards the problems young girls have?

I'm not sure that young girls experience any problems from not singing on a mixed treble line? Separate girls and boys lines seems to be best for both of them, and the only reasons to go with a mixed line are related to time and money.

[Vox Humana]

Byrd's masses and Gradualia were written for domestic performance, which must have included women and/or girls.

I agree It's also worth adding that post-Reformation liturgical sources of Tudor music not overly plentiful. I haven't done a count, but I think it's accurate to say that a majority of the surviving sources are secular. That's certainly true for Elizabethan manuscripts. As a result, given the lack of a clear-cut division between sacred and secular in those times, it is often a moot point whether what appears to be an anthem really was written for church performance. Even if a given piece was, domestic performances would surely have included females.

[french frank]

I'm not sure that young girls experience any problems from not singing on a mixed treble line?

That quote wasn't referring to anything quite so specific. I have no investment in the general musical question of who sings what. I was objecting to what seemed like a one-sided argument which suggested to me that the other side of the argument was a completely unknown country. That implies bias.

Thinking again about the question of women tenors and basses (as I was before), I was reminded of the experiences that Alfred Deller described in the early days of his career when there was smiling and giggling as he opened his mouth and out came a woman's voice. I'm quite persuaded that Vivaldi did indeed write for women only. Times change, attitudes change. 'Tout passe, tout lasse, tout casse et tout se remplace.'

[Miles Coverdale]

I agree It's also worth adding that post-Reformation liturgical sources of Tudor music not overly plentiful. I haven't done a count, but I think it's accurate to say that a majority of the surviving sources are secular. That's certainly true for Elizabethan manuscripts. As a result, given the lack of a clear-cut division between sacred and secular in those times, it is often a moot point whether what appears to be an anthem really was written for church performance. Even if a given piece was, domestic performances would surely have included females.

Indeed. A number of verse anthems (ie with organ accompaniment) may well have originated as consort anthems (with viols). Gibbons’ This is the record of John is one of the more well-known ones to survive with both forms of accompaniment, and it’s difficult to say which came first.

[DracoM]

But are you equally sympathetic towards the problems young girls have?

Yes.

[Resurgam]

<< I continue to maintain that this is one of the few areas in education where it’s better to segregate boys and girls of this age for singing.>>

Agreed.
The suggestion I am being sexist is sadly but predictably predictable.

Boys can be bullied, cowed, and if they feel that it is the case, a number will ask parents to take them away from the school/choir. They use al manner of excuses.
Seen it, counselled in such circs.
It is sad and a boy can have real damage done to his sense of worth by girls and / or boys / or both. Boys pretend / thus hide such things / It undermines and damages.
It is a fact that girls KNOW they are likely to be the central core of a mixed choir on purely physical grounds, and they can and some do assume 'leader' roles that easily tip into harassment as a result.
Seen it / know it. It is not pleasant.

PS I do not need lectures on this. Have been in the front line and know it to be true.

Draco,

The decision to have a mixed top line at St John's seems to me to be a triumph of hope over experience.

You only have to look at parish church choirs which used to boys only on the front line for years and then went mixed and which are now usually all girls with perhaps the odd boy.

Similarly the currently existing cathedral choirs that are mixed top line - Manchester and Edinburgh - have mainly girls. At least when I last visited there were a couple of boys that's all.

In the case of children at the ages of 8 to 13, as at St John's College School, it is well proven that boys and girls in choirs is not a successful mix.

What I don't really understand about this development is why it is necessary to disband an outstanding and successful choir of boys and men.

It can only be that they can't get enough boys or, as I have said above, political correctness.

If it is because of the Equalities law why have Hereford, Chichester, Windsor , St Paul's and Westminster cathedrals which all have mixed sex choir schools not gone down this path ( so far at least).

If this has been forced on Andrew Nethsingha by the school or the college unnecessarily it is an absolute disgrace.

[jonfan]

‘If this has been forced on Andrew Nethsingha by the school or the college unnecessarily it is an absolute disgrace.’

The St John’s Choir website states that this move has been spearheaded by Andrew himself, a development he has long wanted. So therefore no disgrace, absolute or otherwise. DH at King’s is quoted as wanting something similar.

[cat]

DH at King’s is quoted as wanting something similar.

I remember reading this claim elsewhere, and when I went in search of the quote didn't find it, in fact reading between the lines got the vague impression that the opposite might true.

I know their school's new head has alluded to it, and since she started they now have girls boarding and better singing opportunities for girls within the school, but I'm not sure changes to the chapel choir are imminent?

[french frank]

I think it's an issue on which the two sides won't agree, rather as it's reported today that 9 in 10 people would vote the same way on Brexit. That suggests that 1 in 10 wouldn't, and I think the exchange of arguments is always useful.

Not a new issue, and I was interested in this article by Dr Edward Wickham who has specialist knowledge in late medieval/Renaissance music, and also by this quote from one of the commenters beneath it:

"I went to a cathedral school in the 00s, and though we did equal duties, and the girls were arguably quite a bit better, the boys received twice the funding and huge scholarships, as well as opportunities to tour across the world, etc."

And it seems as if Rochester cathedral went the way of John's last year.

It's a matter of growing up with, and accepting, a legacy situation: all-boy choirs are a legacy of an age when boys were educated and girls weren't which continued into the 19th c when women were allowed to attend Oxbridge courses but not allowed to claim degrees (or even like Philippa Fawcett who came clear top of her year in the Cambridge Maths Tripos but was not designated 'Senior Wrangler, as only men were allowed that title), and the start of the 20th c when women weren't even allowed to vote. Opinions on whether the subsequent changes have been 'right, 'fair' or political correctness may still differ.

Finally, from the Wickham article, contemplate this quote in support of boy-only choirs for a moment: “The fact is that the sound of the singing boy has been felt for century upon century to be very special and particularly appropriate for worship. Indeed, it is a sound which would have fallen soft upon the ears of Christ himself as he prayed in the temple.” I feel my Wikipedia editor mode coming on …

[Vox Humana]

And it seems as if Rochester cathedral went the way of John's last year.

And this is evidence of what, exactly? Rochester Cathedral has had a girls top line since 1995, as well as the traditional one of boys. Further, in 2004 they introduced a Senior Girls' Choir to enable girls to keep singing after leaving the girls' choir at 14. I do not know why the cathedral has taken the decision to amalgamate the girls' and boys' top lines, but (ignoring the ridiculous thought that it's an ideological objection to boys) it can only be because of a problem with recruitment, or a funding issue. Whatever the reason, it's hardly a progressive step.

[cat]

I've seen arguments from both sides of this thing over the years that are pretty nebulous tbf.

For me personally, the proof will be in the pudding as far as the sound of the choir etc goes. I know there are some other choirs with mixed treble lines, but I suppose it's always been easy to think "well, they're not quite up there with the likes of St John's". In a few years once new choristers have progressed through the choir, we shall all hear what the new St John's are like. AN seems keen to showcase this to the world

Of course if it ends up being regarded as a great success, then the concern I mentioned up thread might come to pass - that lots of places will not bother to continue maintaining two trebles lines, and the total number of opportunities to be a chorister will be much reduced.

[french frank]

And this is evidence of what, exactly?

It wasn't offered as evidence of anything, merely something that came up as I was looking for information - an isolated one-liner out of 15 lines. The initial opinion was that this was an issue on which the two sides were unlikely to agree. Ever. Because as on every other division of opinion, the reasons that are important to one side do not hold the same importance for the other side.

[Vox Humana]

Of course if it ends up be regarded as a great success, then the concern I mentioned up thread might come to pass - that lots of places will not bother to continue maintaining two trebles lines, and the total number of opportunities to be a chorister will be much reduced.

With the general decline in religious belief and commitment, I think this is inevitable, unfortunately. From the religious angle you'd think that The Church would be only too keen for institutions to maintain two top lines, if only because doing so potentially introduces more people to God. It's surely other factors driving the change.