‘Girls and women to sing as members of The Choir of St John’s‘

[Braunschlag]

No, but there are two separate considerations: one is the membership of the choir, which traditionally has always been boys and men only; the other is the much valued sound - 'the epitome of English choral singing' - which is so valued. The centuries old tradition is, ' No girls'.

And with that in mind I would support Andrew Nethsinga in breaking with such an outdated concept. I wish him well.

[Resurgam]

And with that in mind I would support Andrew Nethsinga in breaking with such an outdated concept. I wish him well.

Well in what exactly - in destroying an outstanding choir of boys and men in the process?

The Master of St John's in the blurb on the website states that the choir of St John's has a stellar reputation for its contribution to the rich choral tradition of the UK. It is a musical treasure of St John's, the university and the world. I would remind her that its stellar reputation is based on its outstanding choir of boys and men nothing else.

Andrew Nethsingha's statement on the site is complete and utter political correctness which may go down well in university circles - the College's overarching commitment to equality and musical excellence according to Mrs Hancock - but in the existing chapel choir they have excellence in abundance.

If equality is their concern the proper thing for Andrew to do is to set up a separate choir of girls,men and women which I am sure would be of very high quality and enhance the college's reputation, not to destroy the existing choir of boys and men. As it stands he will have to live with this reputation long after he has departed the College.

As an after thought. What will become of the excellent choir 'The Gentlemen of St John's'? The Ladies and Gentlemen I suppose. Ridiculous.

[Pianoman]

As an after thought. What will become of the excellent choir 'The Gentlemen of St John's'? The Ladies and Gentlemen I suppose. Ridiculous.

Only to dinosaurs…I mean really, now, in the 21st Century ??

[Resurgam]

Only to dinosaurs…I mean really, now, in the 21st Century ??

So adult all male choirs are anathema as well are they?

What price Welsh male voice choirs continuing to exist in the future at this rate?

All male social clubs are already threatened by the feminists but have avoided change so far - for how long I wonder.

Boy scouts have had girls thrust upon them ( but not vice versa I note ).

Are men and women and boys and girls never to be allowed to do anything socially unless they do so together?

God knows males need a break from females now and again to stop themselves from going mad - husbands from their wives, brothers from sisters, schoolboys from schoolgirls, boy choristers from girl choristers.

As they say, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. God save us from these equality fanatics.

[cat]

There are a few “male voice” professional groups in this genre, like The King’s Singers and The Gesualdo Six, and I’ve not seen them criticised for not accepting women. Meanwhile mixed adult vocal consorts and choirs, both student and professional, are ten a penny. You’d think then, that there might continue to be space for adult student male choirs, but I think there’s only The King’s Men left now as they hail from the only collegiate choir without women altos.

However I don’t really see the argument there - forming groups of choral scholars or other adult singers whether male or female is trivially easy compared to creating or altering choral foundations including children, so there’s nothing to stop any of the Gents of St. John’s or anyone else setting up a new male group. I’m not sure they do much other than sing Jingle Bells in the pub anyway, but of course it’s useful performance experience outside their usual setting.

[jonfan]

It's impossible to know where to start in reply to #64, so I won't. I think we need to to see what happens at St John's before marking the demise of an all male choir there. There are many separate male and female choirs in the UK and long may they flourish, but choral foundations that educate children surely have a duty to ensure equal opportunities for both girls and boys to enable them to fulfil their potential in the choral medium.

[french frank]

It's impossible to know where to start in reply to #64, so I won't. I think we need to to see what happens at St John's before marking the demise of an all male choir there. There are many separate male and female choirs in the UK and long may they flourish, but choral foundations that educate children surely have a duty to ensure equal opportunities for both girls and boys to enable them to fulfil their potential in the choral medium.

Indeed. I have a feeling that however things turn out at St John's, there will be some who will detect a huge difference in quality. And that huge difference will represent a huge loss. In fact, simply knowing that girls too are singing will represent a loss, regardless of how they've been trained to sing.

[DracoM]

[ahinton]

As I have written previously, there's nothing wrong in principle with all-male or all-female choirs but, by the same token, there's nothing to be deprecated in Gemischte Chor. The writer of #64 (on which I will restrict any comment appropriately), in appearing to believe otherwise, seems to wish to imply that choirs, especially in positions such as that of St. John's, should be all-male "because that's how it's always been". The primary function of choirs like it, along with that of UK cathedral choirs, is in the service of the Christian Church and, last time I looked, the function of that Church has always been to serve male and female alike. Moreover, in the days of this inviolable all-male choral "tradition" in such places, bishops and other non-flower-arranging members of Church staff were almost all male, as indeed were organists / directors of music; one might wonder if the writer of #64 likewise deprecates the "intrusion" of women into such positions of authority within the Church as representative of a disruptive disintegration of that all-male "tradition".

[Vox Humana]

There are many separate male and female choirs in the UK and long may they flourish, but choral foundations that educate children surely have a duty to ensure equal opportunities for both girls and boys to enable them to fulfil their potential in the choral medium.

Forgive me, but why does this necessitate a mixed top line at St John's? What would be unequal about having an equal division of labour between one top line of boys and another of girls? Alternatively, what wold be so unpractical about having two top lines?

This discussion seems to be all about sex. There are some people (and I am one) who believe that the sound of an all-male choir is musically very pleasing and should be encouraged. There are others (and I am one) who believe that mixed choirs are musically pleasing and should be encouraged. However, I am in no doubt that all-male choirs are today very much more difficult to maintain and that we are in real danger of losing them in the long term. I am saddened that there are some out there who appear to think that this would be a good thing. May I suggest that, when this happens, our musical experience will be the poorer?

[jonfan]

Forgive me, but why does this necessitate a mixed top line at St John's? What would be unequal about having an equal division of labour between one top line of boys and another of girls? Alternatively, what wold be so unpractical about having two top lines?

Exactly, I apologise if that wasn't clear above. Many cathedral choirs do have two top lines. My main point was for equal opportunities.

[Resurgam]

As I have written previously, there's nothing wrong in principle with all-male or all-female choirs but, by the same token, there's nothing to be deprecated in Gemischte Chor. The writer of #64 (on which I will restrict any comment appropriately), in appearing to believe otherwise, seems to wish to imply that choirs, especially in positions such as that of St. John's, should be all-male "because that's how it's always been". .

I don't imply any such thing.

My posts on this topic make it clear that I support girls singing in church choirs but I don't agree with the unnecessary destruction of first rate choirs of boys and men.

With to regard the latter being the tradition and that this should always be so, it should be remembered that boys singing in the various foundations was usually a condition of their founding statutes and charters. It has probably not been that easy historically to get around this legally although it must now be possible to make changes to allow girls choirs to operate in college chapels and cathedrals.

Probably it is still difficult in places like Westminster Abbey and Eton College and King's with their Royal origins. I don't believe St John's is a Royal foundation which is probably why they can make the change if they wish but I am not legally qualified to say on any of this.

I support women's equality in all respects but there are some who seem to campaign tirelessly against men ( and boys ) without accepting that men and women and girls and boys are not the same and there are numerous situations in which these differences should be accommodated.

[Vox Humana]

Cantankerous thought: I'm wondering whether the change at St John's isn't really about a unique selling point: the first mixed top line in an Oxbridge college.

[DracoM]

And how will that affect CD sales globally, because I'm thinking many will feel very sad and FAR more unlikely to buy.

[Resurgam]

Cantankerous thought: I'm wondering whether the change at St John's isn't really about a unique selling point: the first mixed top line in an Oxbridge college.

Andrew Nethsingha wants a choir of mixed adults and children not just a mixed top line of boys and girls according to the website.

Evidently he has wanted this for some time and obviously sees this as his special contribution to Oxbridge choirs for whatever reason.

It would seem that he has no problem recruiting men and boys at present because the changes won't happen until 2022 so the current choir is still a going concern - why disband it completely in a year's time and start a new choir from scratch which will not be fully operational for another 5 years evidently when he expects to have equal numbers of boys and girls in all year groups?

With boys voices often breaking at 10/11 these days I think this will be problematic for him and result in the treble line becoming top heavy with girls' voices. I suppose he could include women on the front row to get round the drop in tone quality.

I remember his distinguished predecessor David Hill saying that he that he knew he would always get a better sound from boys than from girls of the same age range.

Why Andrew feels it is going to be worth all this upheaval is beyond me. If he is worried about equal opportunities start a separate girls' choir as has been done elsewhere and keep the current traditional boys' top line as well it must be the best bet in the long run.

Regarding my last post about the amending of royal charters I read in the paper yesterday that a faction at Benenden girls'school is fighting a suspected attempt by the trustees to change their charter to allow the entry of boys into the school!!