Unfair to amateur choirs?

[ardcarp]

https://www.classicfm.com/music-news/coronavirus/amateur-choirs-anger-football-singing-covid-guidance/

One very good small amateur choir near us was due to sing CE at Gloucester later in the year. The visit has just been cancelled.

[french frank]

https://www.classicfm.com/music-news...ovid-guidance/

One very good small amateur choir near us was due to sing CE at Gloucester later in the year. The visit has just been cancelled.

My niece was telling me yesterday that her choir (City of Bristol) had just managed to book an outdoor venue for what was to have been their first full rehearsal but they wouldn't be able to rehearse their intended programme. What is deemed to be the difference between an amateur and a professtional choir in this context?

[mopsus]

What is deemed to be the difference between an amateur and a professtional choir in this context?

It is not just that the professional choir members are paid (otherwise churches etc. could just pay a nominal fee to everyone in their choirs). Previously I saw a definition to do with the kind of insurance the singers held, determining whether they are professional.

There was a council of war with various distinguished choir directors yesterday, but it doesn't look as if the Government will back down, so amateur choirs will have to wait for a month for any possibility of change. There is a petition at https://www.change.org/p/department-...al-well-being? which has at the time of writing over 11,000 signatures. It will not reverse the current situation, but it will show DCMS that the objections do not come from a handful of people - and maybe remind them that most of the people who signed the petition have a vote.

[Cockney Sparrow]

It is not just that the professional choir members are paid (otherwise churches etc. could just pay a nominal fee to everyone in their choirs). Previously I saw a definition to do with the kind of insurance the singers held, determining whether they are professional.

There was a council of war with various distinguished choir directors yesterday, but it doesn't look as if the Government will back down, so amateur choirs will have to wait for a month for any possibility of change. There is a petition at https://www.change.org/p/department-...al-well-being? which has at the time of writing over 11,000 signatures. It will not reverse the current situation, but it will show DCMS that the objections do not come from a handful of people - and maybe remind them that most of the people who signed the petition have a vote.

Choirs held distanced, covid safe rehearsals of up to 30 in Autumn last year (including one I belong to). There was no instance of transmission. And before vaccination. Apparently the current DCMS guidance sees singers as superspreaders unless they number 6 or less (unpaid) or are professional.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/working-safely-during-coronavirus-covid-19/performing-arts#sec-2-4

Yes, please sign the petition. And also write to your MP if you will. Current oscillations over the variant spread etc leave the June unlocking date in some doubt.....

[french frank]

It is not just that the professional choir members are paid (otherwise churches etc. could just pay a nominal fee to everyone in their choirs). Previously I saw a definition to do with the kind of insurance the singers held, determining whether they are professional.

Yes, but why are they treated differently in terms of these restrictions? Is it only amateur choirs who are limited to 6 members when singing indoors?

[mopsus]

Yes, but why are they treated differently in terms of these restrictions?

I imagine the argument is that the singers are not being deprived of income, unlike professionals. Of course their professional conductors and accompanists may be, although some choirs have agreed to pay their pros the same fee as if all rehearsals had gone ahead.

[W.Kearns]

Knowing that there is a Parliament Choir for singing-minded MPs and anyone else who is based in the Palace of Westminster, I thought they might have some fellow-feeling in this matter. But it seems that I am mistaken. Their website states (in rather small typeface) that their rehearsals 'are currently taking place online.' It's a solution for the tech-savvy, I guess, but I cannot believe that it would suit everyone.

[french frank]

I imagine the argument is that the singers are not being deprived of income, unlike professionals. Of course their professional conductors and accompanists may be, although some choirs have agreed to pay their pros the same fee as if all rehearsals had gone ahead.

But the restrictions are public health rules, not economic ones. Professional choirs don't have some sort of automatic immunity so don't need to bother about the public health concerns.

[teamsaint]

But the restrictions are public health rules, not economic ones. Professional choirs don't have some sort of automatic immunity so don't need to bother about the public health concerns.

Not all measures are implemented with regard to the actual likely public health impact. See elite/non elite/male/female sport ( including travel abroad) for confirmation. (There have been plenty of elite footballers testing positive.)

You can find discrepancies in any area of life.

To be fair, which I'm not really in the mood to be, I suspect that " one size fits all" regulations are likely to be at least as unsatisfactory as tailored ones in the current situation where government sees fit to intervene at every level. But one's view probably is affected significantly by perception of risk in specific areas, and one's wider view on how such risk might be mitigated.

[Roslynmuse]

Bizarrely, brass band rehearsals ARE allowed to happen from this week so long as the distancing and ventilation rules that any choirs who were able to get together last autumn are followed. I understood that there was very little difference between aerosol production through wind and brass instruments and singing.

[ardcarp]

Yes that occurred to me too. And brass players (I ought to know 'cos I was one as a kid) are wont to empty 'condensation' from their instruments during bars' rest. What's in the condensate is anyone's guess! Mind you, this isn't sour grapes. I'm GLAD they're allowed to rehearse and perform.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

The choir I'm in had its first rehearsal yesterday, in a Dutch barn, with wide spacing of singers. It was wonderful to be able to get back to real live group singing.

The official discrimination against singers verges on the absurd. When you speak, you breath in and out all the time, with no thought of how much air you are expelling. When you sing, you conserve air in order to sing long phrases (usually to reach the next comma or rest), so air is expelled from the lungs much more slowly than when you're speaking. The 'powers that be' don't understand this simple thing.

I play the oboe, which requires so little air that I have been know to play for up to 90 seconds in a single breath. On a flute, long phrases are more difficult to control, but in the end, it's very much like singing with regard to breath control.

They allow people into football matches now, with fans shouting - which means frequent very rapid airspeed.

I know Boris is a scarecrow, but nevertheless, I thought he must have a brain.

[oddoneout]

The choir I'm in had its first rehearsal yesterday, in a Dutch barn, with wide spacing of singers. It was wonderful to be able to get back to real live group singing.

The official discrimination against singers verges on the absurd. When you speak, you breath in and out all the time, with no thought of how much air you are expelling. When you sing, you conserve air in order to sing long phrases (usually to reach the next comma or rest), so air is expelled from the lungs much more slowly than when you're speaking. The 'powers that be' don't understand this simple thing.

I play the oboe, which requires so little air that I have been know to play for up to 90 seconds in a single breath. On a flute, long phrases are more difficult to control, but in the end, it's very much like singing with regard to breath control.

They allow people into football matches now, with fans shouting - which means frequent very rapid airspeed.

I know Boris is a scarecrow, but nevertheless, I thought he must have a brain.

He does, but anything beyond autonomic function seems to be a challenge, so science and analysis are off limits.

[EnemyoftheStoat]

The application of a rule of six to choirs in itself shows how little understanding this bunch have of the way choirs work. Anybody who thinks petitions etc will make any difference is deluded, I'm afraid. What would make a difference, you can be sure, is if choral singing made any great contribution to GDP. In that case, covid would of course work completely differently...

[oddoneout]

The application of a rule of six to choirs in itself shows how little understanding this bunch have of the way choirs work. Anybody who thinks petitions etc will make any difference is deluded, I'm afraid. What would make a difference, you can be sure, is if choral singing made any great contribution to GDP. In that case, covid would of course work completely differently...

Although petitions may not always achieve their aim of changing something they do have two other functions which are also important; they allow an individual to express a view in a legitimate fashion, and indicate a level of concern. You are right, to an extent, about contribution to GDP and the influence thereof, but as we have seen "culture", however much it contributes to GDP, doesn't figure in the workings of this administration and so lacks that leverage, which means of course that anything non-income generating ( including amateur activities) is completely off the radar.
Has anyone seen any explanation/justification for the discrimination? I can't help wondering if it's a combination of ignorance of what is known so far about aerosols and inability to make a competent and accurate assessment of comparative risk. In that case a petition with large numbers of signatures might enable (yet another) u-turn without the dreaded loss of face along the lines of "we have reviewed the evidence blah blah". Does it all disappear after June 21st - if that happens?