CE St Pancras Church [L] Wed, 19th May 2021

[DracoM]

Every time I tune in to similar CEs, I keep asking the Qs:
e.g for whom?

[a] most choirs have no possible skill / rehearsal time / expertise to take up much of the material.
[b] How many congregations would reel in surprise and...well...other reactions?
[b] How many CHURCHES are going to rush out and buy the scores?

.................so, more concert than service?

[ardcarp]

I hate to have a slightly different 'take' from you, my dear fellow Host, on the Festival of Contemporary church music. My main thought is that choirs can't go on singing Stanford in B flat for ever. Or to make a reductio ad absurdum we are not still worshipping by ululating at the moon. Anyway, taking one thing at a time:

[a] OK maybe a small parish choir doesn't, but collegiate or cathedral choirs might have a go. I think the only really difficult pieces were the canticles. (What was that extra text in the Nunc BTW?) I thought the Joanna Marsh anthem was an excellent piece and it could grow on you! Likewise the Introit.

[b] Yes, congregations may well reel in surprise. But they ought perhaps to be exposed, occasionally, to a new range of styles. Otherwise we have to assume that only one sort of music is appropriate to church worship, (Many Orthodox churches take this view, so I understand.)

[c] Probably very few, I agree. But you never know, a piece might 'catch on'. We really ought to be moving on from the 'look what lovely chords I can write' school of...well I won't say who. (I stole the quote from another forumista. Apolggies.)

On a personal note, I thought this CE was more genuinely 'contemporary' sounding than some previous broadcasts. As far as

more concert than service?

is concerned, well that criticism is often levelled at cathedral CEs which do lengthy canticle settings and big anthems and which are definitely not contemporary. I rather liked one of the celebrant's closing prayers today, something about the spirit of music lifting our hearts.

[cat]

Plenty of church music going back to before Tudor times wasn't written for the average choir but with e.g. the expertise of the Chapel Royal in mind, or to show off to the examiners of a degree. I expect the concert vs service accusations are as old as the hills too.

[jonfan]

Agree wholeheartedly with Mr A. We need composers to create new pieces for the liturgy. I enjoy the surprises this service brings each year.

[oddoneout]

Every time I tune in to similar CEs, I keep asking the Qs:
e.g for whom?

[a] most choirs have no possible skill / rehearsal time / expertise to take up much of the material.
[b] How many congregations would reel in surprise and...well...other reactions?
[b] How many CHURCHES are going to rush out and buy the scores?

.................so, more concert than service?

This could(and is) asked of modern music in general, but it doesn't stop it being created. Those who are inspired to do so,whether with an end purpose(commission) or not will continue to create. Events such as this can be a shop window to display wares and perhaps get further interest. It perhaps has a slightly different focus from those who write music for everyday consumption, whether sacred or secular?
Yes congregations can be something of a dead hand when it comes to change/different, but the occasional challenge shouldn't do lasting damage?

[DracoM]

So, yes, issues. I truly admire the choral forces, the inventiveness, BUT ...............well, let's leave it at that!!

[Quarky]

.....Substance, not Form.....

Is the primary purpose of a Churchgoer to participate in a Religious Ritual, or to listen to the music?

[DracoM]

Hmmm. Good Q.
Music is for many prayer, whether you are singing or someone is doing it for you?

[cat]

.....Substance, not Form.....

Is the primary purpose of a Churchgoer to participate in a Religious Ritual, or to listen to the music?

For evensong it's surely to participate by listening to the music...

Awful music can be filed alongside vacuous sermons and inaudible prayers as something that detracts from the "Religious Ritual"

(not a comment on this CE which I haven't listened to yet)

[vinteuil]

.....Substance, not Form.....

Is the primary purpose of a Churchgoer to participate in a Religious Ritual, or to listen to the music?

... but this is broadcast on the cultural (ho ho) channel of the BBC, and not narrowcast on a 'religious' broadcasting station.

Many of us listen to it for the music - as non-believers the religious element for us is a trivial irrelevance or irritation.





.

[jonfan]

...

Many of us listen to it for the music - as non-believers the religious element for us is a trivial irrelevance or irritation.

This view doesn’t really stack up in the context of CE. Music can be an irrelevance and an irritation to believers who want the spoken word, or silence, to experience the divine. CE is a broad ‘church’ with wide appeal to believers and non- believers and can be appreciated on whatever level one likes. To remove the music and/or the spoken liturgy takes away the essential description of what’s in the tin - Choral Evensong.

[vinteuil]

This view doesn’t really stack up in the context of CE. Music can be an irrelevance and an irritation to believers who want the spoken word, or silence, to experience the divine. CE is a broad ‘church’ with wide appeal to believers and non- believers and can be appreciated on whatever level one likes. To remove the music and/or the spoken liturgy takes away the essential description of what’s in the tin - Choral Evensong.

... yes, I get all that. And I enjoy in an irreverent way many aspects of the more poncey elements of a good high anglican choral evensong

My objection was to Quarky's apparent assumption that the churchgoer's needs took priority over those of other listeners to choral evensong as broadcast on radio 3


.

[Quarky]

......... the essential description of what’s in the tin - Choral Evensong.

Dredging my memory, I often wondered why "Now let your servant depart in peace" was stated at the beginning of the service, rather than at the end. Are we being let off the hook? (serious question)

[vinteuil]

Dredging my memory, I often wondered why "Now let your servant depart in peace" was stated at the beginning of the service, rather than at the end. Are we being let off the hook? (serious question)

...well, I suppose it marks Simeon's first encounter with the Christ-child, and so can appropriately come at the beginning -


25 Et ecce homo erat in Jerusalem, cui nomen Simeon, et homo iste justus, et timoratus, exspectans consolationem Israel: et Spiritus Sanctus erat in eo.
26 Et responsum acceperat a Spiritu Sancto, non visurum se mortem, nisi prius videret Christum Domini.
27 Et venit in spiritu in templum. Et cum inducerent puerum Jesum parentes ejus, ut facerent secundum consuetudinem legis pro eo,
28 et ipse accepit eum in ulnas suas: et benedixit Deum, et dixit:

29 Nunc dimittis servum tuum Domine, secundum verbum tuum in pace:
30 quia viderunt oculi mei salutare tuum,
31 quod parasti ante faciem omnium populorum:
32 lumen ad revelationem gentium, et gloriam plebis tuae Israel.

[ardcarp]

Many of us listen to it for the music - as non-believers the religious element for us is a trivial irrelevance or irritation.

I get that. Many members of collegiate or cathedral choirs are non-believers (and perhaps there are several levels of non-belief?!) but nevertheless find something best described as spiritual in the music they sing. I am sure this also applies to non-liturgical and non-choral music which inspires or moves us.