Just recovering from the shock.....

[jonfan]

Possibly you missed it Odders. It was very missable! Just a few recit-type nptes to 'Thou shalt break them like a potter's vessel' just before the Hallelujah Chorus.

Apart from that (which I think was a fudge and not at all scholarly) I don't want to be too rude about that 'condensed' Messiah. A typical choral-society audience would probably think it was great.

I think you are being unfair to 'a typical choral-society audience' of this century. 60 years ago as mentioned above, maybe. It's great for professional musicians to perform at last, but something suitable for the ENO surely! If 'Messiah', how about Tenebrae or the Sixteen? They need work as well!

[BasilHarwood]

I think you are being unfair to 'a typical choral-society audience' of this century. 60 years ago as mentioned above, maybe. It's great for professional musicians to perform at last, but something suitable for the ENO surely! If 'Messiah', how about Tenebrae or the Sixteen? They need work as well!

You’d just be rude about them too, and then pick and pick and pick at that performance.

[ardcarp]

I didn't mean to be rude. Having been associaed with choral societies in various capacities over the past 50 years I am aware that the greater part of audiences is made up of friends and relatives of the performers, except when the work performed is one of the much-loved icons such as Messiah and possibly Elijah which will draw in a wider section of the music-loving public. However, I am also aware of excessive length being (increasingly?) a problem to some audiences. Without meaning to be elitist in any way, I really intended to say that the 'condensed' Messiah on BBC2 tonight would have suited many...the best-loved choruses and the best-loved arias, sung (despite jonfan's reservatons) with some verve and style. Audience fatigue may not have been a factor 60 years ago when some performances of, for instance, the St Matthew Passion, taken at snails' pace, could last for three hours. I think attention-spans and the pace-of-life have generally demanded a quicker delivery of pleasurable experience.

As far as being picky is concerned, I guess this Forum is a place for both praise and criticism...the latter being done in the politest possible way of course.

[oddoneout]

Possibly you missed it Odders. It was very missable! Just a few recit-type nptes to 'Thou shalt break them like a potter's vessel' just before the Hallelujah Chorus.

Apart from that (which I think was a fudge and not at all scholarly) I don't want to be too rude about that 'condensed' Messiah. A typical choral-society audience would probably think it was great. Such an audience can become restive if every jot and tittle of Messiah is done. There are a few bits which can IMHO be left out. But if a 'bleeding chunk' of Messiah is needed, Part II from No. 22 (Behold the Lamb of God) to No.33 (Lift up your heads) is very effective as part of a Passiontide/Holy Week concert...and you only have to pay for 2 soloists! No surgery needed...but no Hallelujah of course.

Although playing on modern instruments and at A440, the small band did its best to play in 'early music' mode. I did wonder why the conductor didn't like the semiquaver upbeats, eg in Behold the Lamb of God. They almost became crotchets at times! Surely this was a 'French Overture' convention that Handel would have absorbed with his mother's milk. And talking of overtures (or should I say the talked-OVER-ture) he didn't like the semiquavers there either! I also wonder why early straight trumpets were chosen. I love them, and their players are amazing, but in that dry acoustic the soloist in The Trumpet Shall Sound (sorry mate!) just sounded a bit weedy...and rushed a bit. Given that all the other instruments were 'modern', I think a couple of valved D trumpets in the tutti and one for the solo would have made a better impression. In fact the ensemble was a tiny bit flaky at times (at one point in the Hallelujah Chorus for instance) but given the spread-out disposition of the forces, I guess that had to be expected.

OK so having been ruder than I intended to be, it was great that all those ENO musicians actually had some paid work to do in these straitened times.

That's quite possible I missed it!
I did wonder if the original intention had been to do a longer version and other material was recorded, and it was cut down? There were other choruses and arias that I would have thought merited being included in an Easter version and I missed them. However, as I took it at face value and came at it with no expectations I enjoyed the hour. It was an opera company not a HIPP group, and performing under unfamiliar and rather difficult circumstances. The operatic aspect from the chorus was much less than I had feared (and no worse than a performance of Stabat Mater I heard recently by a non-opera group) and I thought the soloists pretty conventional rather than operatic. Iestyn Davies didn't disappoint and I liked Nadine Benjamin's commitment to the words of "I know that my Redeemer liveth". Nardus Williams I have seen before and as previously I'm afraid she once again looked and sounded to me as if she was afraid of the music.
We can pick holes but I think there will be many up and down the country from traditional amateur choir backgrounds who will have enjoyed this effort, and it's still better it was broadcast than not in my opinion.

In any case there was Kings to follow, which I thought sublime.

[cat]

Will certainly be interesting to see what makes the cut and how it all sticks together!

Puzzling rather than interesting. I can't see that they had Easter in mind when deciding what to squeeze in, or indeed anything in mind at all - it just came across as a series of random clips. Very bizarre programming. Presumably they had very limited rehearsal and recording time, and they thought an hour's worth of bits would please enough people.

Obviously pandemic etc and we shouldn't complain, but given some of the wonderful filmed performances we've seen over the last week on YouTube etc, achieved in many cases with far fewer resources, this was disappointing from the BBC.

[jonfan]

On reflection my main quibble is the choice of numbers from Messiah. This hour of bits could have been put on at any time of year as entertainment but programming on Holy Saturday indicates it’s got a devotional element as well. With adding on a half hour the whole of parts two and three would have covered the passion narrative to the resurrection and ascension.
I hope our attention spans are not decreasing Mr A. Days attending the Ring pack houses over the world and BBC Four’s slow programmes journeying on a canal or across the arctic, watching monks go about their daily routines, struck a chord with many.

[cloughie]

Puzzling rather than interesting. I can't see that they had Easter in mind when deciding what to squeeze in, or indeed anything in mind at all - it just came across as a series of random clips. Very bizarre programming. Presumably they had very limited rehearsal and recording time, and they thought an hour's worth of bits would please enough people.

Obviously pandemic etc and we shouldn't complain, but given some of the wonderful filmed performances we've seen over the last week on YouTube etc, achieved in many cases with far fewer resources, this was disappointing from the BBC.

Really little thinking outside the box, Easter? What Easter?

[Ein Heldenleben]

Another shock on BBC2 this evening? Not one, but two programmes for elitist niche audiences, how did that slip under the radar and avoid relegation to BBC4?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000tzdt

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000tzcg

On a positive note , not having seen the vibrato filled Messiah, the singing in Easter From King’s is absolutely wonderful.Placing the adult voices in the nave (as with the Kings Singers at Christmas ) really seems to work. It is also good to see the readings in other areas of the Chapel.

[jonfan]

On a positive note , not having seen the vibrato filled Messiah, the singing in Easter From King’s is absolutely wonderful.Placing the adult voices in the nave (as with the Kings Singers at Christmas ) really seems to work. It is also good to see the readings in other areas of the Chapel.

Agree. The men yesterday were also the Kings Singers. I believe it was recorded about the same time as the carols whilst all the tv and lighting kit was installed. A huge ask of the young choristers.
I enjoyed the intimacy of the service with many parts of the Gospel narrative chanted.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Agree. The men yesterday were also the Kings Singers. I believe it was recorded about the same time as the carols whilst all the tv and lighting kit was installed. A huge ask of the young choristers.
I enjoyed the intimacy of the service with many parts of the Gospel narrative chanted.

Yes you are right it was the Kings Singers. Some exceptionally fine singing by all...and as you say the chanting of the Gospel very effective with some crystal clear diction.

[ardcarp]

I agree wholly with....

as I took it at face value and came at it with no expectations I enjoyed the hour. It was an opera company not a HIPP group, and performing under unfamiliar and rather difficult circumstances. The operatic aspect from the chorus was much less than I had feared (and no worse than a performance of Stabat Mater I heard recently by a non-opera group) and I thought the soloists pretty conventional rather than operatic. Iestyn Davies didn't disappoint and I liked Nadine Benjamin's commitment to the words of "I know that my Redeemer liveth

and....

my main quibble is the choice of numbers from Messiah. This hour of bits could have been put on at any time of year as entertainment but programming on Holy Saturday indicates it’s got a devotional element as well.

see extract from my earlier post.....

" if a 'bleeding chunk' of Messiah is needed, Part II from No. 22 (Behold the Lamb of God) to No.33 (Lift up your heads) is very effective as part of a Passiontide/Holy Week concert...and you only have to pay for 2 soloists! No surgery needed...but no Hallelujah of course."

As far as "Nadine Benjamin's commitment to the words of "I know that my Redeemer liveth" is concerned, there was a well known quote from yesteryear along the lines of 'If you hear Isobel Bailey singing I Know That My Redeemer Liveth, you just know that He does....even if you're an atheist.'

[mopsus]

the greater part of audiences is made up of friends and relatives of the performers, except when the work performed is one of the much-loved icons such as Messiah and possibly Elijah which will draw in a wider section of the music-loving public.

I think the days when Elijah pulled people in are gone now. The choral society I know best has not sung it for many years (although it still does Messiah most Decembers) but has got good audiences recently with works such as the Chichester Psalms and Mozart's Requiem.

[oddoneout]

I agree wholly with....



and....



see extract from my earlier post.....

" if a 'bleeding chunk' of Messiah is needed, Part II from No. 22 (Behold the Lamb of God) to No.33 (Lift up your heads) is very effective as part of a Passiontide/Holy Week concert...and you only have to pay for 2 soloists! No surgery needed...but no Hallelujah of course."

As far as "Nadine Benjamin's commitment to the words of "I know that my Redeemer liveth" is concerned, there was a well known quote from yesteryear along the lines of 'If you hear Isobel Bailey singing I Know That My Redeemer Liveth, you just know that He does....even if you're an atheist.'

Right at the beginning of the programme, before the music started,(and yes slapped wrists for talking over the overture, no excuse for that) there was a brief snippet of Nadine B which I found delightful - she was so full of joy at what she was taking part in, so I wasn't surprised that came out in the aria.
And yes as I mentioned earlier I agree that the choice of items was not the most convincing either in the supposed context of the occasion or the balance of the music itself.

[LHC]

Puzzling rather than interesting. I can't see that they had Easter in mind when deciding what to squeeze in, or indeed anything in mind at all - it just came across as a series of random clips. Very bizarre programming. Presumably they had very limited rehearsal and recording time, and they thought an hour's worth of bits would please enough people.

Obviously pandemic etc and we shouldn't complain, but given some of the wonderful filmed performances we've seen over the last week on YouTube etc, achieved in many cases with far fewer resources, this was disappointing from the BBC.

AS this was a BBC TV commission, I imagine the main criteria for the version used was that it should include the most famous arias and choruses, and last no more than 1 hour, as that was the only slot the TV controllers were prepared to give up, and that musical or theological coherence came a distant third and fourth.

I can still remember when the BBC showed the charity concert in commemoration of the Beslan schoolchildren, which also took place at the Coliseum, and they cut one of Shostakovich's Songs and Dances of Death in order to make the concert fit within a two hour timeslot.

[CallMePaul]

I can still remember when the BBC showed the charity concert in commemoration of the Beslan schoolchildren, which also took place at the Coliseum, and they cut one of Shostakovich's Songs and Dances of Death in order to make the concert fit within a two hour timeslot.

I didn't see this, but surely Songs and Dances of Death is by Musorgsky? Shostakovich did, of course, orchestrate the piano part so maybe this was the version played?