CE Manchester Cathedral on Easter Sunday April 4th 2021[L] @ 3 p.m.

[Pulcinella]

A very interesting debate . As a massive generalisation I find much HIPP Baroque too fast and much late classical / early romantic playing (esp Beethoven Piano Sonatas) too slow. I am not asking for Klempereresque tempi ( even though weirdly I like his utterly “inauthentic” Messiah) but tempi which respect the words and the underlying harmonic pulse ...

Might even be worth starting a new thread other than in the CE realm, which some learned forumites might not venture into?

I was always taught that the speed should be no faster than one in which even the smallest value note is heard and plays its part, as presumably the composer intended. Probably a bit over-simplistic, but I'm sure there's an element of truth in it.

[ardcarp]

Might even be worth starting a new thread other than in the CE realm, which some learned forumites might not venture into?

Good idea Pulcs. But I hopes you isn't suggestin' that us choir peeps ain't learnd?

[Ein Heldenleben]

Might even be worth starting a new thread other than in the CE realm, which some learned forumites might not venture into?

I was always taught that the speed should be no faster than one in which even the smallest value note is heard and plays its part, as presumably the composer intended. Probably a bit over-simplistic, but I'm sure there's an element of truth in it.

The question-begging phrase in that otherwise excellent advice is “plays its part”

[Pulcinella]

Good idea Pulcs. But I hopes you isn't suggestin' that us choir peeps ain't learnd?

Not at all!
We're ever so learned on here (and I've learned a lot too!).

But others may think that these CE threads are a little outside their comfort zone/area of expertise, and not venture here, and it would be a shame to restrict this discussion (but I'm not going to start it; perhaps some relevant posts could be copied (not deleted) into a new thread, which would need a host to do).

Just so long as it doesn't become a thread that degenerates into a set of spats between different camps; always a risk, I guess.

[jonfan]

I look forward to hearing this CE.
Many years ago our vicar mentioned he had sung the St Matthew under RVW. He loved the music so much one needed a calendar rather than a clock to time the performance as the speeds were so slow.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Not at all!
We're ever so learned on here (and I've learned a lot too!).

But others may think that these CE threads are a little outside their comfort zone/area of expertise, and not venture here, and it would be a shame to restrict this discussion (but I'm not going to start it; perhaps some relevant posts could be copied (not deleted) into a new thread, which would need a host to do).

Just so long as it doesn't become a thread that degenerates into a set of spats between different camps; always a risk, I guess.

If I may say so , with the arguable exception of threads relating to Sheffield and upcoming jobs , the CE forum is , like the music it celebrates , a haven of harmony and repose...

[DracoM]

Thx, yes. Delighted to endorse that sentiment!!

[Barry Rose]

Thx, yes. Delighted to endorse that sentiment!!

I didn't mean to open a long discussion about tempi - printed or performed - and perhaps this is the place for all of us to put our hands together and applaud Christopher Stokes and his choir for a really splendid festive Evensong. After months of recordings of varied quality, what a joy to hear something live on Easter Day. Just a couple of things about tempi and then I'll withdraw back into my shell. 1) We were rehearsing a performance of Solomon (in St.Albans Abbey) and one of the oboists was obviously unhappy about my steady tempo for the Arrival of the Queen of Sheba. I'm told that I replied - she came on a camel, not in a Ferrari. 2) We've all done Messiah at differing speeds on different occasions in different places with different forces. The only manuscript copy I've ever seen does say Larghetto for 'Blessing and honour and glory' in Worthy is the Lamb, though it is usually done faster than that. It does work at the more stately speed if you are really involved in word-painting, and certainly the Amen chorus then has a more forward musical sweep. You might be interested to hear the slower version of WITL into Amen here - https://www.dropbox.com/s/qruxkby40x...73%29.wav?dl=0. And finally, we can easily get swept up in theories about performance practice, but the truth of the matter is this - none of us will EVER know what Bach, Handel, Byrd, Gibbons etc., heard in the way of vocal quality and at what speed they, themselves, took their pieces. I've also sometimes wondered if Handel might have wanted A-mun rather than a-MEN.......

[ardcarp]

none of us will EVER know what Bach, Handel, Byrd, Gibbons etc., heard in the way of vocal quality and at what speed they, themselves, took their pieces.

Hear hear!

[jonfan]

Handel threatened to throw a singer through a window and Bach had a fight with a bassoonist, both in the cause of striving to get their music performed the way they wanted. Thank goodness it’s not like that today, especially in this thread, a haven of harmony and repose.

A wonderful, keen, vibrant sound from the top line and agree with DracoM at #8 above. 'Thanks be to God' comes at the end of Messiah when the high tessitura can be somewhat taxing! Good to hear it at the start of proceedings and the top notes nailed thrillingly. Thanks Manchester!!

[Coventrycity196]

Agreed (very good top line indeed), but that anthem was unbearably slow... and the phrasing in the closing voluntary not well articulated, too.

Perhaps you’d like to record your own performance, complete with articulated phrasing, and upload onto this forum so that we can all hear it, then. It’s very easy to criticise from the comfort of one’s own armchair, I thought it was very well articulated, and I enjoyed it. Also, having been involved in more performances of the Messiah than I’ve had hot dinners, I thought the tempo of Worthy is the Lamb was about right. I guess it’s down to individual preferences.

[Keraulophone]

The current trend gives the impression that elegance is no longer an acceptable concept in music.

You’re right, organista. Elegance, the ‘weight’ of the words, the movement’s place as the conclusion of the great work, clarity of individual lines in the building, and further reasons - one does not have to have been brought up on the Beecham-Goossens recording to appreciate the tempi here and admire this performance of the anthem in a cathedral context.

For me, the more significant tempo that Mr Stokes got absolutely right was in the Stanford Magnificat in C. Tales abound of how Bernard Rose, a treble at Salisbury at a time when Stanford used to visit, would send a postcard to admonish those whom he detected had chosen a speed he (and by implication, the composer) deemed too fast. Lastly, thanks to the heroic tenors on the penultimate note of the Amen.

[Magister Chori]

Perhaps you’d like to record your own performance, complete with articulated phrasing, and upload onto this forum so that we can all hear it, then. It’s very easy to criticise from the comfort of one’s own armchair, I thought it was very well articulated, and I enjoyed it. Also, having been involved in more performances of the Messiah than I’ve had hot dinners, I thought the tempo of Worthy is the Lamb was about right. I guess it’s down to individual preferences.

I feel honoured that you registered to this Forum expressly to answer to my comment. But it's such a pity that you are doing it with so childlishly and self-reported arguments that nothing add to the discussion and don't go straight to the point.

You should know that yes, a Forum actually is - by its definition and nature - a place where everyone is entitled to discuss - and even criticize - from the comfort of one’s own armchair.
And every criticism is legitimate when precise, competent and detailed, as my second comment was intended to be. Not everything relish upon individual preferences.

And no, I'll not upload here my own performance, completed with articulated phrasing simply because this is not the place to show off how good we are at singing/playing/conducting/composing, and also because I'm interested in a constructive criticism and not in individuals likes or dislikes (which everyone is surely entitled to have).

Last but not least, be sure that we do not live our lives on our own armchairs and sometimes we also actually do music, maybe even for a living, maybe even in BBC CE, also - who may knows... - being serenely criticised here.