Asking for the Choral Moon

[french frank]

With apologies to Draco

I think that Hosts and Administrators would agree that the Right of Reply here is absolute, as far as people wish to exercise it. One could wish sometimes that it wasn't necessary, but it's good for the forum to have people who know of what they speak from daily experience weighing in with weighty replies on these topics.

[Simon]

For me the greatest example of text driven music making is Philippe Herreweghe...

Indeed, yes, most certainly. I recall a thread praising him elsewhere a couple of years ago. One of the greats, whose reputation seems to increase with every performance he manages.

[DracoM]

In answer to Chris Watson's challenge on ensemble sounds, here is a head on the block to belabour.

For me, the Tallis Scholars are highly professional, seem almost entirely impersonal and efficient, and have the most uncluttered but antiseptic sound.
The Sixteen seem a bit more coloured, seem to have a much bigger repertoire - would be interested to know if HC recruits additional specific voices to supplement the core when a project he has in mind needs a special colour in recordings / perfs?
Stile Antico - like their small ensemble feel and richness of voice, but I worry about the top line a bit.
Monteverdi Ch - for me they are very much of the 1990's or before. Huge ensemble - or that is how they come across on record - collected a lot of their early work, but the moment they perpetrated that quasi-operatic Vespers 1610 I lost all interest in their readings of renaissance and early baroque polyphony. Their repertoire is huge and thus amorphosises their profile. Efficient, but so what?
Tenebrae - OK, just another highly professional ensemble.
Polyphony - ditto. I do find their symbiosis with the Trinity Coll Cam Ch just ever so slightly queasy, but I'm sure other 'alliances' are less well-publicised that might make me wonder what I was listening to from time to time. A disciplined hybrid sound, usually with vibrato albeit young vibrato at the top which seems to vary according to the peripheral personnel on hand.
Ex Cathedra - big, full bodied sound, highly versatile and innovative in repertoire / performing style - their South American polyphony recitals still live in the memory.

BUT
for renaissance polyphony, I'm afraid very few if any of the above can make me sit up and take as much notice as do the Drome - passion, intensity, thrilling, anchored in the liturgy; or NCO for more diverse repertoire - crystalline clarity, strong personality and utterly knockout treble / alto sound. On a more personal level, John Scott's choir at St Thomas Fifth Avenue NYC are in the same illustrious company.

Maybe the promised upcoming series of webcasts will bring Truro under Christopher Gray more into prominence and confirm the excellent things we have heard, and of course there is Hereford under Geraint Bowen - wish they webcast.

Lot to get The Choir's collective jaws into. There, colours nailed to mast for better or worse

No doubt as soon as I send this posting, I shall immediately think of something else!!

[Simon]

...for renaissance polyphony, I'm afraid very few if any of the above can make me sit up and take as much notice as do the Drome - passion, intensity, thrilling, anchored in the liturgy; or NCO for more diverse repertoire - crystalline clarity, strong personality and utterly knockout treble / alto sound. On a more personal level, John Scott's choir at St Thomas Fifth Avenue NYC are in the same illustrious company.

I think you need to get out and about a bit more, Draco. And I also suggest that, instead of trying to appear clever by throwing out nicknames and acronyms, we use the correct terminology for our cathedrals and colleges, in consideration for others who may not previously have read these boards.

[makropulos]

I think you need to get out and about a bit more, Draco. And I also suggest that, instead of trying to appear clever by throwing out nicknames and acronyms, we use the correct terminology for our cathedrals and colleges, in consideration for others who may not previously have read these boards.

You'll find that NYC stands for New York City in the United States of America.
It's pretty obvious what the others are from anyone reading through the whole of this hilariously un-Christian thread.

[Simon]

Thank you, makropulos.

[makropulos]

Thank you, makropulos.

As they might well put it in said NYC, er, you're most welcome :)

[Bryn]

Have nice day.

[Chris Watson]

I'm delighted to see Westminster Cathedral at the top of Draco's list - it has been the single most important influence on me as a musician, particularly under the inspired direction of J O'D. I think the bias shown towards boy choirs is understandable, as is the fact that they are liturgical choirs, but I wonder that if you took away the top line and listened to all the back rows of the pro groups in the same acoustics, the differences between the groups might not be so obvious! It is certainly true that the Drome boys sing much more passionately than their soprano colleagues are allowed to, and the apse in Westminster Cathedral is the most wonderfully supportive place in which to sing.
Two other things. If I may put in a plea for Tenebrae - I don't think that it is just another pro choir. It's far and away the best group of its kind that I've sung with, and this is due in no small part to the fact that the singers are definitely not just there for the money, and that there is a real feeling of coming together to do something rather special. Whether this comes across on the recordings, of course, is another thing. Which leads to my second point. I think that a lot of the criticisms of the pro groups are valid (well, as they are personal and obviously well thought out opinions they are all valid) but I think that as recording quality and technology has developed, attempts to make everything sound perfect have sometimes ironed out some of the music making. I hope it's the case that not all the above mentioned criticisms would apply to live concerts as well as CDs. Maybe!

[Simon]

I suppose one's personal experiences can tend to colour one's opinions, but WC wouldn't be at the top of my own list. The acoustic - like that in King's College Cambridge - is of course conducive to a unique sound (which as we all know KCC under David Willcocks exploited admirably in times gone by) but despite these "advantages", I've heard, and also taken part in, services elsewhere that have provided a musical (and perhaps at times a spiritually uplifting) experience that these two places have yet to match.

But I expect we've all had those experiences, in diverse places, as our lives have unfolded.

Regarding the pro choirs, of the list I'd go for the Sixteen and Ex Cathedra, in their appropriate repertoire, were I forced to choose. But again, that's down to what I've heard of those on Draco's list, if anything. I don't actually have any CDs by either Polyphony or Tenebrae.

That said, I doubt that I shall ever find a more perfect rendition of the era's offerings than the shorter pieces on Timothy Brown's "Lamentations" CD, with Clare College's choir. (Of all places ) Their Allegri, however, misses the mark a bit, IMO.

o-o-o-o-o-o-o

As for

as recording quality and technology has developed, attempts to make everything sound perfect have sometimes ironed out some of the music making.

I couldn't agree more.

[Gabriel Jackson]

Tenebrae - OK, just another highly professional ensemble.
Polyphony - ditto. I do find their symbiosis with the Trinity Coll Cam Ch just ever so slightly queasy, but I'm sure other 'alliances' are less well-publicised that might make me wonder what I was listening to from time to time. A disciplined hybrid sound, usually with vibrato albeit young vibrato at the top which seems to vary according to the peripheral personnel on hand.

As the beneficiary of a dedicated CD by Polyphony (with Chris Watson a distinguished contributor!) I would suggest that they are a lot more than just another highly professional ensemble. True, there is a perfection (for want of a better word) of balance, ensemble, blend and tuning (but who wants things to be untogether and out of tune?!) but sonority, and sonorous beauty, are in themselves conduits for musical meaning and significance, and always have been. But there also great artistry at work in every bar, and when a director with imagination has singers at their disposal with the means to realise their vision, they can produce extraordinary results. (In the case of my disc, considerable virtuosity is required at times, which not everyone can deliver!) The shaping of phrases is always intensely musical and satisfying and the 'placement' of events in the musical flow can be heartstoppingly affecting.

I don't know what peripheral personnel means.

On another note, Chris Gray and Truro Cathedral Choir have recently released an all-Britten Cd which is very fine indeed.

[DracoM]

< technology has developed, attempts to make everything sound perfect have sometimes ironed out some of the music making >

Totally agree. It seems to be the imperative of record companies to homogenise as far as they can in order to widen the market as much as possible. Live listening is irreplaceable.

Yes, I do take the point about the Drome back rows and indeed many of such in the major ensembles. But, as I said earlier, for me, top lines make a lot of difference to the impact. Delighted we agree about so much, and I promise to listen better to Tenebrae!!