Asking for the Choral Moon

[Gabriel Jackson]

I personally think a clarinet sounds as good as, if not better than, an oboe to listen to. So what?

[Magnificat]

I am reliably informed that Harry and The Sixteen have signed an agrreement with Friends of Cathedral Music to promote audience giving to this charity and to cathedral music foundations precisely because they recognise from whence much of their inheritance comes.

Excellent. This is exactly what they should do.

I hope the Sixteen and other groups do so too.

VCC

[Magnificat]

Sorry should have said The Tallis Scholars.

[Magnificat]

I realise this is not the authenticke sound, but, in my view is probably the future for cathedral choral music, if it is to survive at all.

Unfortunately I think you are right.

VCC

[Gabriel Jackson]

Excellent. This is exactly what they should do.


VCC

You are full of certainty about what musicians should do, what they should be paid, what their terms of emplyment should be, how they should be appointed, who should be appointed...aren't you? It's great that The Sixteen have decided to do this, but there is no obligation on any choral groups to raise money for cathedral music - as has been pointed out, it's difficult enough for them to fund their own activites...

[Magnificat]

Gabriel

I have my views whether you like them or not and I shall continue to make them known if I wish.

For the record I think you are being disingenuous when you say that all these professional adult groups are impecunious.

It wasn't that long ago when I heard an interview with one of their directors who admitted that he had made enough money out of his group's activities never to have to work again if he so wished.

Groups such as this do have an obligation to give something back to the tradition that nurtured them, in my opinion, as the Sixteen have somewhat belatedly, in my view, realised. They've made enough money out of it.

I notice that you never start threads on this board but just like to comment on other people's comments. Have you got anything to say at all apart from pleading poverty on behalf of yourself and other musicians all the time. You are in danger of becoming like farmers and bookies. Personally I've never met a poor one.

VCC

[AscribeUntoTheLad]

Groups such as this do have an obligation to give something back to the tradition that nurtured them, in my opinion, as the Sixteen have somewhat belatedly, in my view, realised. They've made enough money out of it.

I notice that you never start threads on this board but just like to comment on other people's comments. Have you got anything to say at all apart from pleading poverty on behalf of yourself and other musicians all the time. You are in danger of becoming like farmers and bookies. Personally I've never met a poor one.

VCC

Except that all the sopranos in the groups were completely excluded from Anglican church music until relatively recently.

And since when has it been a crime to not start threads on this board? Hardly anyone does, and most of them are about Evensong. Personally I find Gabriel's contributions to be both enlightening and incisive.

[Gabriel Jackson]

Gabriel

Groups such as this do have an obligation to give something back to the tradition that nurtured them, in my opinion, as the Sixteen have somewhat belatedly, in my view, realised. They've made enough money out of it.

VCC

Yes, choristers receive a unique and valuable musical education, and singing great music in a wonderful building day after day is a privilege and an unforgetable experience. But choristers have already given a great deal to the cathedral tradition simply by being choristers - they work extrememly hard (as everyone here knows), give up a huge amount of their time, give their own musical skills, and their parents also have to make a huge commitment to that tradition, not least in terms of the money most of them have to spend in order to faciliate their sons' and daughters' contribution to it.

Incidentally, I have never made any comment about my financial circumstances on this board as they are nobody's business but my own, just as yours are nobody's business but yours. The difference is that you appear to think mine are your business too.

[LPCharles]

Dear Magnificat/VCC,

What Gabriel and others have said above needs little adding to, I feel, though in light of what you have said (several times now) regarding remuneration to composers and practitioners of liturgical music in both sacred and secular contexts, ie that your view seems to be that it is just about acceptable to pay people for such services, but in doing so, one is exploiting almighty god, which you feel is unacceptable, I would like to mention, in the spirit of fraternity that very brief and easy research on many of the composers/painters/architects/sculptors/builders of the past, to whom we owe much of the artistry we agonise over today, in particular the Italian school of the 15/16/1700's reveals that they were in fact paid extremely well for their services. Indeed, a lowly uncharitable atheist such as myself might venture to suggest that the mere historical fact that many of these individuals gravitated towards centres of wealthy theistic institutions such as Rome and Venice (which is why we even know of them today)imight be testament to the contextual scenario that that was where much (if not all) work was to be had-Victoria for example was paid extremely well. I would be very interested to see if you would make any parallel opinions about them and the individuals and organisations about which you clearly have no conscientious problem offering opinion, on what they should or shouldn't pay their workers and composers etc.

As an extra point, I hope you won't mind if I plead that you give yourself and your faith the self-respect of recognising that it may not be the promise of divine reward that compels artists to create the work which we are all now able to enjoy-if this were the case, would you disregard works such as the Mass in C/Missa Solemnis (Beethoven), German Requiem (Brahms), Glagolitic Mass (Janacek) and, debatably, the Requiem (Mozart)?

As an aside, I wouldn't know, having been out of the loop for a few years, but which cathedrals now employ female altos?

Thanks in advance.

Léon P Charles (atheist part-time church musician)

PS - It troubles me not at all to comment in Gabriel's defence regarding his personal financial situation of which he has never given a single detail, as if it is even slightly any of yours, or anybody else's business.

[Magnificat]

I beg your pardon Gabriel, I've certainly not made any comment on this board at any time regarding your financial circumstances but when you infer in your comments that musicians in general are always struggling financially then by implication you include yourself. I'm sure many are not well off but there are a lot of people a damn sight worse off.

VCC

[Magnificat]

LP Charles

My view is that there is certainly nothing wrong in a church paying composers for music to use in the worship of Almighty God or their singers for performing it.

What is not acceptable is for third parties to remunerate musicians by way of royalties, buy-outs etc such as happened in the Royal Wedding business. The church should pay the musicians what is due to them in such situations where a religious service is involved and it has allowed the broadcast etc. If the church doesn't do this then certainly God is being exploited to make money.

I have no problem with concerts etc in church which are not services and musicians can be paid what is their due by whomsoever.

As regards your second paragraph I am not absolutely sure what you are getting at. An atheist can, of course, compose music, although I would say he is able to do so because of his God given talent. If he composes a Mass setting and believes not a word of it that is his problem. Others can enjoy it certainly, believers definitely will.

From a recent article in Cathedral Music magazine Peterborough have started to use women altos and others are certainly likely to follow suit.

VCC.

[Gabriel Jackson]

Gabriel


For the record I think you are being disingenuous when you say that all these professional adult groups are impecunious.


VCC

The world of professional choirs is extremely difficult financially. That is the case all over the world, not just in this country. The other night I had dinner with the manager of one of the world's greatest choirs (not from the UK) who are faced with a funding cut so severe it threatens their entire existence. The Latvian Radio Choir, another of the world's greatest choirs, is no longer supported by the broadcaster it takes its name from, as they could no longer afford to pay (or justify paying) for the group, which now has the perilous existence of an independent, freelance ensemble. A few years ago Finnish Radio disbanded their very good choir because they couldn't afford, or were no longer prepared, to fund them. All over Europe professional choirs are having to reduce their numbers of singers for financial reasons. In this country a pioneering group recently lost their entire arts council grant (and many don't receive any arts council funding in the first place). There are several very highly-regarded groups that exist almost entirely as recording choirs because giving concerts is so financially unviable. As Chris Watson has pointed out, the reason why so many singers sing with a number of different groups is that there isn't the work (because there isn't the money) for them to be employed full-time by the same ensemble.

[DracoM]

I am reliably informed that Harry and The Sixteen have signed an agrreement with Friends of Cathedral Music to promote audience giving to this charity and to cathedral music foundations precisely because they recognise from whence much of their inheritance comes.

Excellent news. Will it be on The Sixteen website soon?

[DracoM]

Interesting exchange, illuminating on several counts, BUT as Host can I please urge contributors not to take excursions into ad hominem postings that raise all manner of issues about the personal financial circs of other posters? This Forum depends on the good sense and generosity of spirit of its participants.

BTW, 'Evensong' and its regular appearance is actually an accident of forum history. It never ceases to miff me that postings on all manner of other choral events keep being posted on Perf / PLatform 3 /Early Music et al threads! I suppose it is because the posting of CE is a regular weekly event that seems to suggest that all people here are interested in is CE and choral work in cathedrals. It very much is NOT.

Sigh.

[Chris Watson]

With apologies to Draco, I will make a couple of comments before attempting to drag this thread back on topic! I'm not sure that anyone has the right to suggest that anyone else has an obligation to pay back something to a place where he or she learned a part of their craft, and I'm certainly not sure why boy choristers get singled out. When I'm on stage with the Tallis Scholars there are rarely more than 4 of the 11 who were choristers, myself not included. And there are many ways that working musicians (and yes, we are paid but have no guaranteed work, no pension or employment rights and can lose a week's work if some idiot on a bus decides to sneeze on us) - we teach, do workshops for instance, and as has been pointed out most of the groups in the UK run scholarships or apprentice or school schemes. As has also been pointed out, conductors often earn quite well but I don't know one who hasn't used this fact to help, by taking a reduced fee to help guarantee work, for example, and I know one in particular who has given a substantial sum to a choral foundation. And I'd be very surprised if he was alone. All the musicians I know contribute in one way or another to the next generation of performers, or the musical life of amateur musicians, and we really don't need to be told to do this.
To return to the topic, I'd be interested to know how people would define the different sounds of the choirs and consorts in the UK. I have my own thoughts, of course, but they are partly due to the different blend of the familiar voices of my friends.
And to pick up on something interesting that VCC said, the more I sing choral repertoire the more I am convinced that the words are of paramount importance, particularly when singing renaissance polyphony. The emphasis placed on the text by different directors varies from pretty much non-existent to all-consuming. For me the greatest example of text driven music making is Philippe Herreweghe, and it would be interesting to know if this comes across on recording.