Asking for the Choral Moon

[DracoM]

The Sixteen, the Tallis Scholars, the Choir of [apparently ] Trinity College Cambridge - heard them all in very close proximity over the last two or so days, and frankly, it sounds as if the same 60 or so London professional singers just rotate seamlessly from one ensemble to another.

'If it's Thursday, it must be me, Harry and the lads doing Victoria.....or was I down for the Tallis team and identikit American composers....or was that with Stevie and the Students....or it could be JEG and the Montys.......blimey, must get my diary better colour coded than that.....'.

Am I being grossly unfair here? Can you tell the difference between the Sixteen and the Tallis Scholars in a blind tasting? And if so, what do you take to be the distinctive timbres that separate these ensembles?

If you heard Westminster Cathedral Ch, Hereford, Truro, Winchester, Tolz, you would be able to tell the difference within a few bars.

Is there any inherent virtue in idiosyncratic sounds, or in asking for distinctiveness, am I asking for directions to the road of eccentricity / quirks simply to get attention?

[rauschwerk]

Am I being grossly unfair here? Can you tell the difference between the Sixteen and the Tallis Scholars in a blind tasting? And if so, what do you take to be the distinctive timbres that separate these ensembles?

I believe I could. I dislike the sound of the Tallis Scholars which is too unemotional for me in most of the music they sing. The Sixteen, by contrast, are less afraid of sensuality. I wonder how many singers these two groups have in common?

You certainly have a point about many groups consisting of different permutations of the same set of singers.

[DracoM]

< I sing for Ex Cathedra and Polyphony as well as The Sixteen when needed >

Just got this about a singer off a website of a high prestige Early Music group. QED.

[onemarathon]

Am I being grossly unfair here? Can you tell the difference between the Sixteen and the Tallis Scholars in a blind tasting? And if so, what do you take to be the distinctive timbres that separate these ensembles?

I think I would...The Sixteen would be the one I like very much and the Tallis Scholars would be the one I don't.

The sound of the group comes from the individual singers themselves (which as you say, there's a fair bit of musical incest going on), but also the actual combination of singers, and of course the choral director.

In any case alot of the men in these groups - Cardinalls Musick, The Sixteen etc also sing for the London church choirs I think. I remember being at a concert 2-3 years ago sung by The Sixteen mainly, with a few additional pieces sung by the Drome choir, and it seemed like 1/4 of the men were singing in both choirs anyway.

[yorks_bass]

The Sixteen, the Tallis Scholars, the Choir of [apparently ] Trinity College Cambridge - heard them all in very close proximity over the last two or so days, and frankly, it sounds as if the same 60 or so London professional singers just rotate seamlessly from one ensemble to another.

On the basis that 60 singers would make up the cores of 4 or 5 entirely distinct groups, this is hardly earth-shattering. See also below.

'If it's Thursday, it must be me, Harry and the lads doing Victoria.....or was I down for the Tallis team and identikit American composers....or was that with Stevie and the Students....or it could be JEG and the Montys.......blimey, must get my diary better colour coded than that.....'.

Am I being grossly unfair here? Can you tell the difference between the Sixteen and the Tallis Scholars in a blind tasting? And if so, what do you take to be the distinctive timbres that separate these ensembles?

Are you being unfair? It depends whether or not you think it's a bad thing that singers hold down regular positions with such groups in plurality. As a choral director, commenting on this thread elsewhere, said (and I hope he doesn't mind my reproducing his words):

"From the point of view of the singers it's more or less inevitable, since very few ensembles generate enough work to make a living from doing their work alone, yet the timing of concerts and recordings makes it more or less impossible to take a regular job alongside."

Now I know you mean more specifically that this leads to groups sounding identical, a charge I would (at least partially) refute. The Tallis Scholars have always been an individual sound, love it or hate it. I suppose it could be summed up as emotionally detached, with rather held (or 'straight' if you prefer) tone. The Sixteen has vaguely similar roots (in terms of the conductor's student background and influences), but the difference in numbers and the slightly more care-free approach (and freer vocal production) does make for a rather different result. If I couldn't hear the difference I would question my ability to continue in this profession. That said, I still think you picked the two most similar-sounding groups for that particular sing-off. Other than perhaps being readily identifiable as English, I would say that the sounds of such groups as the Monteverdi Choir, the Gabrieli Consort, Polyphony, Tenebrae, the BBC Singers, the Clerks, Exaudi, the Cardinall's Musick, Alamire, Ex Cathedra (to name a few - feel free to add) are all quite distinct in their approach, both in vocal terms (full-throated or ultra-blended) and ensemble (some clipped in the choirboy style, others more organic), reverence to the cathedral tradition or pushing the boundaries of performance in tempo and expression. It's more about the particular group's direction than the particular singers engaged.

If you heard Westminster Cathedral Ch, Hereford, Truro, Winchester, Tolz, you would be able to tell the difference within a few bars.

I'll take the first example there, as it's the only one I'm in any position to talk about. The Drome has a style unique certainly among English choirs, beloved of some, hated by others, with much opinion in between, and that's just on these messageboards. But most of the 10 men sing with exactly the groups mentioned above, some being regulars with a number of them, producing entirely different results, and this is the case with singers from the Abbey, St Paul's and many others. I would hazard a guess that it's the demands of repertoire, forces, location/acoustics and tradition that create and maintain the WCC sound, and similarly demands from choral directors elsewhere that create an inimitably English sound in the other groups. Compare the Huelgas Ensemble, for instance - different tradition, director with very different background, but still with some overlap in singers, all of which combines to produce something entirely different. More characterful, perhaps.

So in response to the two main points:

a) yes, there is some overlap between groups, but it's hardly a closed shop, and it's only reasonable that people should be able to maximise experience and earning potential.

b) yes, there is a difference between the sounds of groups. I suppose one becomes more attuned the more one listens, and inside knowledge of conductors' approaches may inform that listening. I can't tell the difference between Carlisle and Southwell, Truro and Hereford, Ripon and Rochester. But then I don't listen to many of them very often. Horses for courses really. Not that there isn't room for more individuality of course, but with Classic FM and the like pumping out the same old stuff and holding it up as perfection, is it any wonder there is at least some overlap of style? Market forces...

Far too long. Congratulations if you made it to the end.

[french frank]

Congratulations if you made it to the end.

Oh, thank you . But I thought the topic was a basically interesting one and it's good to get such a detailed reply.

[DracoM]

Certainly did last to the end - a bit of da capo here and there. But will return to the topic - today is a bit fraught. Very interesting. Suspect the key to it all is in the penultimate para - 'market forces'.

[DracoM]

I find that the top line and sometimes the tenor line are what give a choir a particular character.

In GG's time at St John's both very distinctive trebles AND sepulchral basses gave the choir its weight and emotional intensity. Interestingly, under DoM Robinson that 'sound' disappeared within about a year maybe less. Under DoM Nethsingha there is at the moment some kind of transition going on - boys seemingly by a number of reports and hearings not quite at their strongest, but basses good. At KCC, many have commented on the significant change of boy tone under DoM Cleobury particularly latterly, and of late too, a particularly strong tenor line. At the Drome - do correct all this when necessary - it is often BOTH top two lines - not infrequently sung by boys under successive DoMs and of course reinforced as well as altos soli - and the Drome's gravelly basses that give gravitas and character. Indeed the Drome can do drama in liturgical music as well as if not better than anyone, as does John Scott's superlative St Thomas NYC choir. DoM Higginbottom at NCO is producing almost operatic trebles a wonderful alto sound, and consummate scrupulous balance which is huge and yet carefully focused. DoM Bowen at Hereford gets a big, bright, lucid tone that flourishes in that acoustic as many have commented on, and DoMs Sharpe and latterly Gray at Truro are getting a very big, articulate, rounded top line sound, bags of confidence, encouraging the men to sing out but not through or over the boys, thus in Anglican repertoire we get a balance that is bright, airy, crisp, plus real musicianship in that cathedral.

Now in all these cases, DoMs have strong influence on the sound within a very short pace of time. Traditions build, boys hand on those sounds both consciously and unconsciously to each other, and indeed this is encouraged by and large - kids capacity to fit into the sound landscape around them at the drop of a hat is of course legendary in both speech, accent and musical timbres as well. BUT one suspects that in the big pro adult ensembles, all have been through very, very rigorous training well before they arrive in ensembles / foundations. They have already found their voices, they have confidence and skill in developing them, such that when they arrive in a new musical landscape they carry that distinctiveness with them as well as being experts in acquiring camouflage. There are zeitgesity sounds that can prevail for a time depending on the conductors who audition who themselves have traditions from whihc they too come. Remember the early Clerkes of Oxenford recordings? That searing, stratospheric vibrato-less top line? Crisp altos? On the other hand at almost the same time, remember that sequence of recordings made by 'Carmelite Priory' under John McCarthy - VERY different, much closer to that of the BBC Singers now [I wonder why?] . But it has been the Clerkes sound that has come to have a special place - Tallis Schs would seem to be their natural successors, whereas the Carmelite Priory sound turns up even better presented in the Monteverdi Ch, and suddenly opera met liturgy - brilliant pros all, of course. Since then, a huge number of ensembles both in UK and abroad have followed in different UK traditions: think Huelgas [ their 40 -part Cd is magic ], Brabant, Stile Antiquo, whereas Continuum take us back to that fantastic sequence of recordings made by Pro Musica Antiqua - Messrs Patridge, Elwes, Esswood, Thomas etc. and of course the earliest days of the King's Singers before they dissipated into cabaret. Huge holes in all that that many will want to scream at, I am sure.

But maybe the most telling watershed in creating current choirs has been in the separation of choirs that sing liturgical music from actual foundations where that liturgy is central to their every day musical experience. That, for me, marks the huge difference in outlook, style, needs and economics between then and now. Most of the recordings and recitals we have today are from pro ensembles utterly divorced from any semblance of liturgical immediacy: it has become marketable performance, a way of catching the massive and growing market for 'religion' as feelgood via music. They do it expertly, with staggering virtuosity, and are backed by increasingly sophisticated research and diversity, but it is as if performing in a museum rather than a cathedral etc.

The cathedral tradition plus the Drome, Tolz, St Thomas NYC etc, are all still live and move and have their being within a powerful liturgical setting that informs all they do - yes, they tour, yes, they do concerts, yes they record of course, but almost all the material they sing is grounded in the AMDG tradition. Now, boys' voices break, choirs go through tricky patches, fashions change [ think Ord / Willcocks at KCC - and now?], and all that makes the commercial thing very difficult. Hence women / girls doing top lines - absolutely reliable, voices develop but don't suddenly implode, such that beady-eyed recording execs know that if they hire the Sixteen, it will be a reliably crack ensemble any time any place. The DoM at a cathedral might try for consistency over the period of a 5 CD contract, but actually, he knows full well that timing is all, so that if leading chorister trebles Johnny B, Sebastian H's or Mark G's voices go before time, either separately or together, and unexpectedly, he has got a problem. Recording companies do not like uncertainty. There is a major market to be satisfied, and the big pro ensembles get the call because they are absolutely consistent. So do the DoMs of those pro ensembles start auditioning looking for voices that come very close to sounding 'boy-like' to imitate the sound many in the market have been conditioned to expect in liturgical music, or do you do a JEG with the Mont Ch and strike out and fashion a new sound in the same liturgical repertoire? At the mo, it looks as if The Sixteen, Tenebrae, Tallis etc have the market sewn up. In one way, that is just a bit sad, but in another way, at least I am genuinely eternally grateful that I have bits of the huge repertoire in perfectly acceptable, perfectly professional, beautifully presented, musically expert versions.

But OTOH I know what sounds the hairs on the back of my neck thrill to!

[Magnificat]

Draco,

I think the term to describe the singing of the adult professional choirs you refer to is " highly polished liturgical background musak."

I love it, but it just cannot be compared, in any way, to cathedral music either now or at any time in the past.

VCC

[Simon]

I think the term to describe the singing of the adult professional choirs you refer to is " highly polished liturgical background musak."

I love it, but it just cannot be compared, in any way, to cathedral music either now or at any time in the past.

Spot on for me, VCC!

Except that I might just insert "quite a lot of" after "love" in your second sentence!

bws S-S!

[Don Basilio]

Digression:

So Westminster Cathedral is the Drome for some reason, but where is Tolz?

[DracoM]

Tolz - Bad Tolz - a spa town at the southern end of Bavaria and home to a very famous Boys' Choir. Monastic base.

[decantor]

Draco, I think the term to describe the singing of the adult professional choirs you refer to is " highly polished liturgical background musak."

I love it, but it just cannot be compared, in any way, to cathedral music either now or at any time in the past.

VCC

Draco, your long post (#8) expressed my own feelings well in principle: having no useful detail to add, I kept my silence. Eventually VCC provided an excellent summary which I too heartily endorse (though I worry about his "any time in the past" - how are we to know?). I actually had to switch off the Victoria late-night prom (switch off Victoria! Imagine!) as it appeared to me to be, as it were, Mondrian presented in grisaille.

With regard to the Tolzer choir, it is surely of recent origin: their whole-body style of singing is a long way from 'monastic', and, despite their exciting contribution to the performance of JSB etc, they are even less liturgical (I believe) than the show-biz WSK.

[DracoM]

Founded 1956. I believe the Tolzen Knabenchor takes some kids from Munich, but most from the area around Bad Tolz. I THINK at one time the church / cathedral was a Benedictine monastery?

[DracoM]

BTW, 'Drome' question asked on here months ago and despite emails, chat, research I can find no-one who can give anything like a coherent answer as to why.