Asking for the Choral Moon

[Chris Watson]

VCC. I would have thought it is was pretty obvious that in an open forum, which is available for anyone in the world to read for as long as the website is up and running, if you are going to criticise someone or comment on their professional work you should have the courage and decency to do so under your own name. I'm not for one minute suggesting that you shouldn't be entitled to say exactly what you want about anyone in the privacy of a pub or dinner party conversation, but the internet is not private and this is not a closed website. If you're not prepared to say something to a person's face then I would suggest that you shouldn't hide behind a pseudonym and say it here. I feel this particularly because in the past some of these threads have descended beyond legitimate positive criticism and discussion (which, as I said before, I encourage) to downright rudeness.

And as for "splashing your real name all over the internet" - are you really that scared? What might happen? Some international criminals might read a page on a small obscure corner of the internet and use your name for nefarious purposes? Really?

I'm sorry that my turn of phrase about liturgical music riled you - it was just the first phrase that popped into my mind. Of course the music and liturgy are inextricably combined and exist together for the worship of God, but I don't think that that makes concert performances irrelevant. Great art - be it music, stained glass, altar paintings - that was originally created for the church can have a life of its own in terms of its beauty and the breathtaking skill (God given, if you insist) of the artist, and it can legitimately be enjoyed by people all over the world, Christians and non-Christians alike, in galleries and concert halls.

[Chris Watson]

Hi doversoul - I replied to VCC before I saw this. Sorry! I have enjoyed reading this thread, and I do hope that the positive side of it continues!
Chris

[DracoM]

I most sincerely hope the positive side of it continues too, because it is very good to have practitioners who step up to explain and offer insights, but in which case, maybe opening with what felt like a bit of a broadside against The Choir threads and all their works was just possibly a teeny tad of a hostage to fortune?

In fact, if I can explain the Forum convention, the anonymity of the Forum seems pretty well universally operative on internet interactive sites, I would have thought, and we know for a fact that there are pros / administrators, BBC personnel etc who use these boards, and are grateful for and indeed prefer anonymity. Were it to be the convention for names to be used, my guess is that far fewer of such would contribute which would impoverish the nature of the conversations, and this, not to cloak poison, but because they value being treated as merely one of the crowd and being able to get into the exchanges without other issues intruding.

[Magnificat]

And as for "splashing your real name all over the internet" - are you really that scared?

I'm sorry that my turn of phrase about liturgical music riled you - it was just the first phrase that popped into my mind. Of course the music and liturgy are inextricably combined and exist together for the worship of God, but I don't think that that makes concert performances irrelevant. Great art - be it music, stained glass, altar paintings - that was originally created for the church can have a life of its own in terms of its beauty and the breathtaking skill (God given, if you insist) of the artist, and it can legitimately be enjoyed by people all over the world, Christians and non-Christians alike, in galleries and concert halls.

CW

Frankly, yes I am scared and so should you be. God knows what is done with the information on here.

As Draco says the convention is that these forums use pseudonyms and I am certainly happy with that state of affairs. I agree that there are dangers in this and it is all too easy to get personal but I am not sure what can be done about it other than to rely on impartial moderation. Sometimes though I also think that people, and this does particularly apply to musicians, can be very thin skinned when it comes to criticism.

I have said above that I love to hear your and similar groups perform liturgical music so well but it is easy for people who hear it and enjoy it, many of whom are not religious, as you say, not to appreciate what it is really all about when they do so. It sounds lovely but do they understand the Latin for example.. It is important, therefore, in my opinion,for people who do know why it was originally composed and the real meaning of the words to be precise when making comments about it.

The only real criticism I have about your groups is that, perhaps, they could give a bit more back to the tradition from which they originate and which has provided many of their singers rather than just concentrate on the commercial side of things. How about some Tallis Scholars scholarships for choristers for example to help the tradition ( of boy choristers particularly ) continue for a few more centuries.

VCC

[Wolsey]

CW
The only real criticism I have about your groups is that, perhaps, they could give a bit more back to the tradition from which they originate and which has provided many of their singers rather than just concentrate on the commercial side of things. How about some Tallis Scholars scholarships for choristers for example to help the tradition ( of boy choristers particularly ) continue for a few more centuries.
VCC

Some groups have been giving "a bit more back to the tradition from which they originate" for some time as detailed here http://www.tsss.uk.com/UK/general_information.php and here http://www.cardinallsmusick.com/workshops

[Magnificat]

Thanks Wolsey. Good to know this is going on.

VCC

[bach736]

Could I just add this for The Sixteen :

http://www.the-sixteen.org.uk/page/3011/Learning

[DracoM]

Cost?

[Wolsey]

Could I just add this for The Sixteen :

http://www.the-sixteen.org.uk/page/3011/Learning

Indeed. And this http://www.monteverdi.co.uk/whats_on/education.cfm . It's always advisable to check facts first before levelling criticism publicly.

[Magnificat]

Wolsey,

Fair enough, but there is nothing here that is particularly directed at helping all male cathedral choirs which is where a lot of the men including Harry Christophers started off as choristers ( I did mention boy chorister scholarships - setting up endowments rather than charging for master classes as Draco hinted ). Older boys may be encouraged by these classes to join cathedral choir back rows eventually which is good, of course, as this is where the drop in boy chorister recruitment will hit hard in the future. Cathedrals are increasingly having to use women altos and I would hate to see the end of the all male cathedral choir tradition that produced Harry C et al.

VCC

[Gabriel Jackson]

Wolsey,

Fair enough, but there is nothing here that is particularly directed at helping all male cathedral choirs which is where a lot of the men including Harry Christophers started off as choristers ( I did mention boy chorister scholarships - setting up endowments rather than charging for master classes as Draco hinted ).
VCC

You have no idea what Harry or any other singers may or may not do as private individuals to help the cathedral music tradition. But where on earth do you think groups like the Tallis Scholars would get the money from to endow choristerships, as you suggest they should?

[DracoM]

Well, GJ, actually, thinking about it, I wonder if therer is a bit more mileage in the idea than I first thought when I saw and initially totally agreed with your posting. Could there be a serious money-making tour banner for one of the major ensembles if they suggested that a certain proportion of the takings would go to providing a bursary to be competed for and then used at a foundation local to the chorister's home city, and setting it up in such a way that it was match-funded either by the foundation itself, or some interested third party? Just a sordidly commercial thought!

As you will know better than most, many such bursaries / scholarships are funded like this is USA in terms of support for music and the Arts. I think I am right that some cathedrals in UK do have local businesses to sponsor individual 'desks' / choristers, who then bear their name eg the Jim Smith Chorister 2012 etc. At least they used to.

[vinteuil]

but DracoM - even the major ensembles need all the commercial and other sponsorship they can get (as well as box-office/Arts Council/local authority support... )just to enable their touring programmes - it's not reasonable to expect them to seek extra funding (which wd compete with their own requirements) for such a project.

[Gabriel Jackson]

I am reliably informed that Harry and The Sixteen have signed an agrreement with Friends of Cathedral Music to promote audience giving to this charity and to cathedral music foundations precisely because they recognise from whence much of their inheritance comes.

[Old Grumpy]

Fair enough, but there is nothing here that is particularly directed at helping all male cathedral choirs which is where a lot of the men including Harry Christophers started off as choristers ( I did mention boy chorister scholarships - setting up endowments rather than charging for master classes as Draco hinted ). Older boys may be encouraged by these classes to join cathedral choir back rows eventually which is good, of course, as this is where the drop in boy chorister recruitment will hit hard in the future. Cathedrals are increasingly having to use women altos and I would hate to see the end of the all male cathedral choir tradition that produced Harry C et al.

VCC

I would support the views offered in posts #41, #43 and #44 above - it must be difficult enough for these groups operating in the current economic climate without being expected to fund cathedral choirs as well. I would also suggest that at long last cathedral choirs are acknowledgeing the contribution that the 50% of the singing population can make, having been excluded for the last X00 years! I personally think a mixed choir sounds as good as, if not better than, an all male choir to listen to. I realise this is not the authenticke sound, but, in my view is probably the future for cathedral choral music, if it is to survive at all.