CE Three Choirs Festival 10th August 2011

[DracoM]

I would very strongly advise contributors NOT to go down that path, please.

[Simon]

There should be no need to change the system that has worked well for years. Most places manage quite well as they always have done without rafts of outside "advisors": the problems seem to set in when people start interfering or changing things.

[Lucasorg]

Advisors

There should be no need to change the system that has worked well for years. Most places manage quite well as they always have done without rafts of outside "advisors": the problems seem to set in when people start interfering or changing things.

But advisers have been around for years in cathedral jobs. What's the issue? Surely it is good that clerics seek advice from those with more knowledge?

A

[Simon]

Course it is, as with anything that one isn't expert in oneself. But as far as I am aware, at least at the more northern cathedrals that in general I know best, these have been from within the community itself - or the diocese anway. I thought the point VCC made was against the need to drag in people from elsewhere, but maybe I read it wrong.

How large was the panel when you were appointed, one wonders, AL?

[Lucasorg]

Course it is, as with anything that one isn't expert in oneself. But as far as I am aware, at least at the more northern cathedrals that in general I know best, these have been from within the community itself - or the diocese anway. I thought the point VCC made was against the need to drag in people from elsewhere, but maybe I read it wrong.

How large was the panel when you were appointed, one wonders, AL?

All of chapter, external adviser, reps from Three Choirs, Choral Society, local RSCM.... as far as ai remember.

How large was the panel when you guys on this discussion board were appointed??....

[muticus]

A hit, a palpable hit....

[Magnificat]

All of chapter, external adviser, reps from Three Choirs, Choral Society, local RSCM.... as far as ai remember.

How large was the panel when you guys on this discussion board were appointed??....

AL

A bit different from when Christopher Robinson was appointed to Worcester years ago. He said in radio broadcast that the two directors of the other the two of the three choirs got together and decided who they wanted. Not that I agree with that method.

VCC

[Simon]

No hit at all, and I think it unhelpful to attempt to create antagonsism wherre there is no need for it.

There was, in fact, nothing to aim at, provided that nobody was fraudulently claiming to be a Director of Music or some other relevant position, which as far as I know was the case.

The idea that nobody who is not a DoM has any worthwhile view on the subject is clearly nonsense, and I'm sure that AL wasn't propounding that. There are other levels of involvement, and expertise, in the British choral music tradition as well as that of those who run the music departments.

But Adrian's reply was interesting (at least to me) as it seems that there were more involved than I had expected, at least from what I have learned from elsewhere. I suppose that the Three Choirs situation adds a couple that would perhaps not be involved in other places.

[Triforium]

Interesting discussion. I’m not sure it’s possible for many advisors to fully grasp what they are hearing/seeing on their own when assessing a candidate’s choral skills - presumably the candidates are allowed a turn with the choir. To the casual observer, a G-Whiz driver can look pretty smooth behind the wheel of a Merc. I do think it would be of great value to have an advisor consult with the men to find out what makes one candidate superior to another as a choral director. Hopefully, said advisor would be able to filter out personal bias along the way. I know what’s on my list. When one encounters the right choral director there is a sense that they simply “know how it goes” - the tempi feel definitive. They clearly project their intent either with exceptionally precise gestures, body language, or if you are very lucky, both. Sprinkle in an amalgam of common sense, experience, musical good taste and you’re set. Everything clicks. Suddenly the choir makes music, not just following someone, or someone following the group.

[Magnificat]

I agree absolutely Triforium but would just add that these days it is absolutely vital that the candidate is able to promote the choir and recruit boys. Worcester along with most other places have struggled and still struggle in this matter and it is no use being a fine choral conductor if you haven't got a choir to conduct.

Frankly, if a candidate's record shows that he/she can produce a good choir that you can listen to without being on edge all the while because the boys are insecure and can show that he/she has a proven record of successful recruitment I would go for that person all the time.

I am assuming that a job like this will attract people who have run a choir of boys and men but as we all know this is not always the case. Frankly, I wouldn't consider anyone who hasn't such a track record as it is a distinct specialism.


VCC

[DracoM]

As Host, can I again respectfully warn contributors against getting into the details of any particular foundation's intimate business.
AL has very kindly let us hear about some such, but as he is about to quit that particular field, he is in a privileged position.

AL has been a most distinguished DoM @ Worcs and whatever feelings about a particular broadcast service there might be, that does not diminish that description of AL in any way.

[Triforium]

... and can show that he/she has a proven record of successful recruitment I would go for that person all the time.
VCC

It really depends upon the foundation. Ideally there should be several individuals in charge of recruitment. And yes, it is a separate skill.

I agree with Draco - these are generalities, a digression, and should not refer to a particular place.

[Magnificat]

Draco,

A Foundation's intimate business - don't be daft.

Anyone with an interest in our choral tradition is entitled to express a view about the qualities needed by a cathedral DoM

Recruitment of boys is a serious problem everywhere and has been for years.

My comments refer to every cathedral, college chapel and church in the land. Worcester has certainly had problems in this area in the past and these have been reported in the national Press, nothing intimate about that.

Any potential candidate for a choirmaster's post who cannot demonstrate or is uncertain that he/she has the skills that this requires should not apply for the job in my opinion. It would be unfair on the Foundation or church concerned and be extremely damaging for the choir and, not least, extremely stressful for himself or herself to the benefit of no one.

A cathedral DoM's job is no longer a 40 year sinecure it is a very demanding one. AL has himself said that it is a job for a younger man and he is not that old.

Choir has to be continually promoted and sold to parents and their boys.

In my opinion there should be a steady stream of activities going on other than singing. Any potential DoM who just wants to be an organist and choirmaster should realise that he/she cannot just be such and Deans and Chapters cannot afford the luxury of having a DoM who is just a fine musician if they are really serious about wanting their choir of boys and men to continue to exist.

VCC