CE Three Choirs Festival 10th August 2011

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  • decantor
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 521

    #31
    Whence this sudden - and misplaced - touchiness on behalf of cathedral singers? For the most part, those who post comments in this forum re CE are prostrate in admiration at the standards achieved day by day: we burst with pride at our wealth of superb liturgical choirs. And those posters will be precisely the ones who care most about the tradition, and therefore will know something about its fragile nature, and the precarious schedules on which it is based; any rare criticism is rueful or marginal. As for the suggestion that we might forget it is a live broadcast -- well, we listen and thrill *because* it is live. The choirs are almost universally wonderful, given their local resources, and a priceless national treasure. Yet on the day when some voice comes crashing in a bar early or a semitone sharp, I bet there will be on this board only diplomatic silence or wry commiseration - of condemnation among regulars there will be none. We do know which side our bread is buttered, and are grateful for so much jam. The fact that 'mistakes' are so rare tells its own story, and we gobble that up too.

    But the music and its composers are different - it is not composed live on air. If a composer writes liturgical music, his first duty (even if an atheist) is AMDG, and his second duty is to uplift the congregation. Our best living composers in the field (James Macmillan, Jonathan Dove, Philip Moore, Gabriel Jackson, Bob Chilcott, Grayston Ives, and more ad lib) do not require a "second hearing" to make the required impact. Others (Jonathan Harvey, Francis Grier, etc) may be more challenging, but they engage at once and leave no doubt that a meaningful message has been delivered. But the Jackson Hill sounded dull (despite, as I said originally, the choir's obvious efforts to rescue it). If a discussion board is to have meaning, it must be permissible to say "it sounded dull" if it sounded dull. I shall listen again, as I always do, and maybe a third time, and perhaps I shall come to love it, but the fact remains that that anthem had no instantaneous appeal. I do not understand why it is wrong to declare that, especially as the declaration might reflect as much on me as on the composer.

    As for the Three Choirs service over all - well, I thought my original post, while admitting one negative, sought out the many positives for all the parties involved.
    Last edited by decantor; 12-08-11, 02:37.

    Comment

    • Miles Coverdale
      Late Member
      • Dec 2010
      • 639

      #32
      Originally posted by DracoM View Post
      I fully sympathise with and understand the sensibilities of performers, but with respect, neither you nor I know who the contributors to this forum are, nor indeed whether they have expertise that has been bred out of long and current performing backgrounds, so that to suggest that contributors are ignorant of the problems of performing in public is a difficult objection to sustain, I would have thought.
      I may not be able to give you names and addresses, but I do think that many posters may it pretty clear from what they say that they are not 'in the business'.

      The principal source of my irritation was post 18. If other people then assumed I was talking about them, so be it. It just annoys me when people take potshots from the sidelines and say things under the cloak of anonymity which they (probably) wouldn't have the nerve to say to your face.
      Last edited by Miles Coverdale; 12-08-11, 22:25.
      My boxes are positively disintegrating under the sheer weight of ticks. Ed Reardon

      Comment

      • Double Diapason

        #33
        Originally posted by Miles Coverdale View Post
        I may not be able to give you names and addresses, but I do think that many posters may it pretty clear from what they say that they are not not 'in the business'.

        The principal source of my irritation was post 18. If other people then assumed I was talking about them, so be it. It just annoys me when people take potshots from the sidelines and say things under the cloak of anonymity which they (probably) wouldn't have the nerve to say to your face.
        Sorry to irritate you Miles. I am a plain speaker and say it as I see - or in this case hear it. I stand by my comments and they are based on over 20 years of being "in the business", listening to CE every week for the last 20 years, working at a high level as an organist (my name might suggest such) and also with choirs. I spent 6 days recently in residence in one of the higher profile Cathedrals (who broadcast on CE recently) so I feel qualified to comment as I did. If everyone else reveals who they are I will too but thats not how it works on these boards. I never understand why people keep moaning about the "cloak of anonymity" when someone makes some sort of criticism. If I said it was the best CE I had ever heard would you be complaining about my anonymity? No didnt think so!!

        Comment

        • DracoM
          Host
          • Mar 2007
          • 12962

          #34
          I wonder if those 'in the business' would be more or less 'precise' in their evaluations?

          My experience of people in the field of any kind of public performance are devastatingly critical both of themselves and each other. What strikes me very forcibly is rather what decantor hinted at, namely that the 'regulars' in The Choir forum are remarkably restrained in writing about services etc and have found ways of indicating without being specific leaving their readers to understand the signals. Mg 18 was very, very unusual in that respect, but I took it to be a legit reaction. My guess is that participants in any service / public performance when talking among themselves might well be far more searching and have more detailed reservations about its execution than might appear on this or any public forum.

          Now, are objectors saying that fellow performers are allowed to be scathing but the audience are not? Or are they saying that such critical opinions must not be aired in a public forum?

          There might even be a school of thought that suggests that the very anonymity of such a forum is extremely useful in that it offers instant but informed feedback from always the very sympathetic - and as decantor says, THIS forum knowing full well that it deals with delicate sensibilities including those of very young choristers, has a track record in couching its remarks generously. From time to time there will always be situations when that can be difficult to achieve.

          Further, a number of subsequent postings accepted that there had been inevitable imperfections - not in itself a particularly remarkable fact given that any who perform publicly are only too well aware of the slips of the live moment, so the fact that posters in this forum spotted such and some commented on them should maybe reassure readers that the forum has people who know what they are listening to and have musical / genre knowledge enough to tactfully point such out? Knowing you are performing for a knowledgeable audience is surely a comfort? Performing to the ignorant can be a short route to complacency, and I am sure I am not alone in having 'we got away with it' exchanges with other performers after a service / concert, I would have thought?

          In any CE, I repeat that perhaps Mg 18 apart, this forum is regularly, week in week out, united in praise for the musicians, BUT can express reservations about the choice of music. That seems to have been the case on this occasion.

          Comment

          • Lucasorg
            Full Member
            • Aug 2011
            • 7

            #35
            Well well well! What an interesting discussion!

            It's fascinating to read the thoughts and opinions of so many who clearly know so much!

            It may be useful for readers of this esteemed discussion board to know that the 9/11 theme has run through the whole festival in a number of different ways. Last Sunday we performed John Adams' harrowing "On the transmigration of souls" along with the Mozart Requiem; the opening service married Andrew Carter's "Prayer of Peace" and the Stanford Eb Te Deum (complete with last post and reveille); various other concerts and events have similarly carried the message through.

            With this in mind, our commission of a new work by Jackson Hill was a suitable and fitting adjunct, bringing some fantastic words from Blake, Newman and the wonderful book of Lamentations together. The commission was put in place during the Hereford Festival in 2009. Yes, it was a longer work than expected, and we found the need to work hard to maintain direction and flow in the musical form, but it grew on us as performers greatly over the past months and a couple of the choristers commented afterwards that they felt very moved by the piece. There were also some in the congregation (of some 670!) who were moved to tears in the service.

            I'm sorry if this spirit was not entirely conveyed over the airwaves, though I must say that the balance from the van (without compression) was beautifully captured by Stephen Shipley and the BBC team. The mood in the building was one of great unity and the turning off of the red light was followed by a deep pause and, ultimately, a sustained round of applause.

            Apologies for the indulgence of chant and hymn-tune! The chant is set to Psalm 53 in our psalter anyway and does indeed offer a nod in the direction of Tchaik 6. The hymn tune was written for an Eton Choral Course some years back as I cannot bear Gwalchmai (sorry to our Welsh forum members!)

            I would certainly encourage you to listen to the work again. Perhaps it would be useful for you to see the text for the anthem:

            ______________________________

            Still, In Remembrance

            Still, still. My soul hath them still in remembrance, and my spirit is humbled. (Lam. 3:20)

            Alas, alas, that great city . . . . decked with gold. For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And they cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! (Rev. 18:16-18)

            From above hath he sent fire into my bones, and it prevaileth against them: he hath spread a net for my feet, he hath turned me back: he hath made me desolate and faint all the day. (Lam. 1:13)

            For a voice like thunder, and a tongue
            To drown the throat of war! When the senses
            Are shaken, and the soul is driven to madness,
            Who can stand? When the souls of the oppressed
            Fight in the troubled air that rages, who can stand?
            When the whirlwind of fury comes . . . who can stand?

            When souls are torn to everlasting fire,
            And fiends of hell rejoice upon the slain,
            O who can stand: O who hath caused this?
            O who can answer at the throne of God.
            (From lines intended for a dramatic piece of King Edward the Fourth, by William Blake)

            Remember, O Lord, what is come upon us: consider, and behold our reproach. (Lam 5:1)

            For this our heart is faint: for these things our eyes are dim. (Lam 1:7)

            It is of the Lord’s mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not. They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness. (Lam 3:22-23)

            And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. (Rev 21:4)

            Thou, O Lord, remainest for ever; thy throne from generation to generation. (Lam. 5:19). Turn thou us unto thee, O Lord, and we shall be turned; renew our days as of old. (Lam 5:21)

            For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts! Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. (2 Cor. 3:10-12)

            It is good that we should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the Lord. (Lam. 3:26). The Lord is my portion, saith my soul; therefore will I hope in him. (Lam. 3:24)

            Learn that the flame of everlasting love
            Doth burn ere it transform. (J. H. Newman, Dream of Gerontius)

            This I recall to mind, therefore have I hope. (Lam. 3:21)

            Still, in Remembrance. Still, still.

            _______________________________

            Hope that's useful!

            A
            Last edited by Lucasorg; 12-08-11, 14:25. Reason: Spelling

            Comment

            • Miles Coverdale
              Late Member
              • Dec 2010
              • 639

              #36
              Originally posted by Double Diapason View Post
              Sorry to irritate you Miles. I am a plain speaker and say it as I see - or in this case hear it.
              That makes two of us then.

              Originally posted by Double Diapason View Post
              I stand by my comments and they are based on over 20 years of being "in the business", listening to CE every week for the last 20 years, working at a high level as an organist (my name might suggest such) and also with choirs. I spent 6 days recently in residence in one of the higher profile Cathedrals (who broadcast on CE recently) so I feel qualified to comment as I did.
              ? My name might suggest I'm a 16th-century Bible translator, but obviously I'm not.

              So you've played the organ for a visiting choir in a cathedral. Good for you. Remind me when a visiting choir was last broadcast on national radio as I must have missed that one.

              Originally posted by Double Diapason View Post
              I never understand why people keep moaning about the "cloak of anonymity" when someone makes some sort of criticism.
              I am only moved to complain about it when people couch their remarks in terms which they would not, if they had any manners, use in person. How would you like it if I came up to you after a service and said that I thought your organ playing was dreadful and that if I'd had any sense I'd have walked out half-way through?
              My boxes are positively disintegrating under the sheer weight of ticks. Ed Reardon

              Comment

              • decantor
                Full Member
                • Dec 2010
                • 521

                #37
                Originally posted by Lucasorg View Post
                Hope that's useful!

                A
                Yes, very useful! Many thanks indeed, Lucasorg, for your enlightening comments on the background to the service, and in particular for the text (I hope it was a paste-over!) which will certainly illuminate my next visit to the JH piece. Interesting to hear that it 'grew' on you and the choirs over a period: perhaps it will work the same trick on me and others. Thank you again for your input, and best wishes for your future ventures.

                Comment

                • Magnificat

                  #38
                  I see that Worcester cathedral, on their web - site, have indicated their desire to find a successor to Adrian Lucas and have appointed a musical adviser to aid the selection panel as is usually the case with these jobs.

                  What exactly is a musical adviser able to advise on? Possibly whether an applicant is a brilliant rather than just an ordinary organist but what about talent as a choirtrainer?

                  If a candidate has run a choir of men and boys, for example, surely it would be better for the selection panel to request examples of his/her proven ability, or otherwise, as to whether he/she could do the job ( CDs perhaps or other tangible evidence ) and then it will be able to judge for itself as most people are able to make up their minds as to whether a choir sounds brilliant, good, bad, "dreadful" or indifferent. If the candidate hasn't run a choir of his/her own then it is always, in my opinion, going to be pot luck as to whether the right choice is made whatever the adviser might say.

                  Some of the appointments of cathedral organists in recent years using musical advisers haven't been that impressive in the choral part of the job at least as far as I am concerned.

                  VCC

                  Comment

                  • Double Diapason

                    #39
                    I am only moved to complain about it when people couch their remarks in terms which they would not, if they had any manners, use in person. How would you like it if I came up to you after a service and said that I thought your organ playing was dreadful and that if I'd had any sense I'd have walked out half-way through?[/QUOTE]

                    I'd apologise and thank you for your honesty. A professional can do no more than that!!

                    Comment

                    • AscribeUntoTheLad

                      #40
                      Oh do sod off, DD. Of course you wouldn't.

                      Comment

                      • french frank
                        Administrator/Moderator
                        • Feb 2007
                        • 30253

                        #41
                        Thanks to Lucasorg for his gracious and relevant response of #35.

                        As for anonymity, if revealing identities on a forum such as this deters someone from expressing an honest opinion, then better the anonymity and the honest opinion rather than silence or insincere flattery. If you disagree with it, think it unfair or ignorant, why take offence? It remains unfair and ignorant.
                        It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                        Comment

                        • Simon

                          #42
                          How would you like it if I came up to you after a service and said that I thought your organ playing was dreadful and that if I'd had any sense I'd have walked out half-way through?
                          I suppose that it would depend on whether the organ playing was in fact dreadful.

                          Apart from that, it is a shame when we get these rants from people after a rare bit of criticism. Rather unprofessional, really. Are they like the cockerels who think the sun comes up just to hear them crow...?

                          That said, I'm looking forward to listening to the service myself - and it will be good to have the information kindly posted above when I do - thank you.

                          bws to all,
                          S-S!

                          Comment

                          • Double Diapason

                            #43
                            Originally posted by AscribeUntoTheLad View Post
                            Oh do sod off, DD. Of course you wouldn't.
                            You know this how?!
                            It has happened to me (a good few years ago at the start of my career). The hymns for the service had been selected by one of the new assisting clergy and he had a bent towards modern hymns (or songs as he referred to them!). I cant remember the exact hymn/song (it was from Mission Praise) but my robbed choir was expected to recess down the nave to it. I did what I felt was the most appropriate thing to do and played it as stately as I felt I could - I would normally have played it a bit quicker. One of the congregation came up to me afterwards and told me how I had ruined the whole service by playing the last hymn far too slowly and it was obviously deliberate as I disliked the hymn and wanted to ruin it. He told me he had taught music (cant remember at what level) and knew about these things.
                            My response was to say " Sorry you didn't agree with me and sorry I ruined it for you". I then went on to say why I played it at the pace I did. My final comment was to say that next time the hymn was on I would be delighted if he would play it so I could learn exactly what speed it should go at. He went quiet, turned and walked away!
                            I did take offence at the time but I did learn that you cant please all the people all the time!
                            For the record my reaction to this CE was legitimate and is exactly how I felt about it. I am sorry if I have upset anyone. I don't comment often as I usually dont feel as strongly as I did about this service. I listen every week and usually agree with what the "regulars" say - good and bad.
                            I am usually blown away by this festival CE and indeed by the CE's from each of the 3 individuals on home turf but just not this time!

                            Comment

                            • AuntyKezia
                              Full Member
                              • Jul 2011
                              • 52

                              #44
                              I'd like to add my thanks to lucasorg for posting the words to the Jackson Hill commission - these will be very helpful when listening to the repeat this afternoon. I wasn't able to be present for the service on Wednesday, but was in the Cathedral the day before for the masterly performance of Handel's Dixit Dominus. Being seated out in the South Aisle I followed the action on one of the large screens thoughtfully provided, and this had the unexpected bonus of giving us from time to time a choir's eye view of the conductor. I don't think I'd quite realised before what a feat of concentration is required in such a complex work from the conductor even more than from each group of singers. It was good to see him acknowledge, with the briefest of winks, a fine effort from the men in one of the trickier passages before pressing on to the next section.

                              I'd also like to pay tribute to Hannah Atherton and Lucy Bowen, whose voices intertwined so beautifully in their soprano duet, and to say a huge thank-you to all concerned in organising and performing at this year's Three Choirs Festival.

                              Comment

                              • AscribeUntoTheLad

                                #45
                                Exactly. You asked him to show you how he could do it better himself. Which is basically what MC asked you.

                                Comment

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